I'm using just the record versions, and:

Insignificance is brooding musically. It bounces in a creepy, methodical way. It picks up but never reaches its 'boiling point,' if you will. Lyrically it's one of my favorite songs off of Binaural.

World Wide Suicide falls kind of flat to me on record. It's tight and catchy, but lacks power. Lyrically it is, though. Every verse is strong and paints a picture.

I can't decide.

I'm not sure if there is one if you wanted to start it. Maybe in news and debate but I don't know how ed specific that is.

We don't have a draft though, so there isn't the same kind of immediacy there would have been 30 years. It's an all volunteer army so there isn't the same kind of risk. I am supportive of a draft precisely for that reason. You shouldn't support a war you wouldn't be willing to fight in (or send you children to fight in). Otherwise you are asking other citizens to make too great a sacrifice in your name.

I'm stuck between the two really. WWS is catchy and enjoy it better than Insig... but... is it actually better?

I'll need to have a think about it.

yeh ditto.


i just love the bombs dropping..please ignore our hometown in our IN-SIG-NIF-ICANCE bit

Insignificance, and that was not even funny.

Tough call....WWS is definately catchier and I really dig the guitar solo....but lyrically, Insignificance takes the win on this. Since I base songs strongly on lyrics, Insignificance gets my vote.

I'm kinda suprised at myself but I vote WWS. Musically i think it's way more interesting to listen to and it's probably a much more unique song too. I like the lyrics to Insignificance better though.

Which lyrics do you think work better as PROTEST lyrics. That is part of my problem with insignificance (at least as a protest song). too abstract, as compared to a WWS, or a song like Grievance. it's why REM can't write a good protest song. You can have some subtley and art in your message, but it still needs to be direct

Funny because that's what I like about Insignificance and what I somehow dislike about WWS (too obvious lyrics). Insignificance is subtle but still I think it's very easy to understand it's about war, and anti-war (you get it even if you don't know the real story behind the song).

I disagree with the idea that Insignificance is about plane or bomb builders. It is about the small town American mentality. "Please forgive our hometown in our insignificance"? You think builders of the war toys are insignificant? No. These folks are from anytown, USA, a place where people are more concerned about their small lives than about the consequences of inaction. "Play C-3, let the song protest." These townspeople aren't going to protest: they play by the same maxim that keeps voters home: our vote is insignificant anyway, so why bother? Oh, shit, we went to all the Pearl Jam VFC concerts, but we forgot to vote and now Bush is in for another four, blowing up the middle east. Our protest would be insignificant, so why bother? Let's play the latest P.J. single and watch it on tv from the false security of our homes. Even as the bombs are falling, the guilt is mitigated by thoughts that the town is powerless in the face of a larger situation.


Insignificance really isn't a "protest song." Interesting how there is no guilt until the bombs start to fall; only in the face of horror and death do they ask for forgiveness. The lack of protest is at the heart of the song's meaning. "All in all, it's no one's fault." Even if you subscribe to the notion that these people do work for Boeing, they refuse to accept resposibility for the imminent destruction. They don't say, "stop it!" or "this is wrong," or "we are the one's who made the weapons" oranything of the sort. They simply usderscore their failure to act--they ask for forgiveness after the fact, forgiveness for not acting. These are T.S. Eliot's "The Hollow Men." The only thing worse than acting wrong is the failure to act at all.

Now, in WWS, well, look at the opening:

"I felt the earth this morning move beneath my feet
In the form of a morning paper, laid out for me to see.

Saw his face in a corner picture. I recognized the name.
Could not stop staring at me. Face I'd never see again.

It's a shame to awake in a world of pain
What does it mean when a war has taken over?"

Pretty direct. There's an very specific and interactive "I" not a vague useless "our." More direct and personal. Immediate reference, "in the form of a morning paper" with the photo of a slain soldier. The speaker interacts with the paper and the face and comes away with pain. From what? The war. The face could not stop staring at HIM like a messenger. He notes that he will not see the face again, yet it will continue to haunt him and make him think about the war and to take action. He becomes a voice for the haunting face--the power giving face that acts as a catalyst for action. The people in Insignicance are faceless and powerless. And he asks about that war--"What does it mean when a war has taken over?" There are no questions of intent here, no hidden faces, no excuses, no insignificance. Everything counts.

The indictment of the commander in chief is swift:

"Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay. "

Now we have a bad guy. And we have our heros as well: the soldiers who are the ones who rise and fall. No insignificance here.

"Look in the eyes of the fallen. You got to know there's another . . . . way." Nothing like the townspeople in Insignificance who have no answers, not even responses--not even questions. "Forgive us." Forgive those who let the Holocaust occur, those who refused to stand up to "the madness." There are no questions in WWS about the speaker's intentions, his beliefs, and his anger.

WWS isn't a song asking forgiveness for the "ten thousand fools," a whimper among falling bombs: it is an indictment of those fools. It is a song that sees the unfolding reality, the impending crisis:

"The whole world,... world over.
It's a worldwide suicide."

Boys and girls, those bombs are about to drop. What are you going to do?

WWS: Action, protest.

Insignificance: Failure to act. Failure to protest.

Don't forget to vote. And not just for a song. You can create change.

By the way, I haven't seen one, but is there a thread on the use of the word "wave" in most of the songs?


Darkness comes in waves
The wave won't break
I see the sound in waves, in waves
A wave will break on me today
Big wave (I got me a big wave)

Curious stuff.

Well, Ed's stated that this is exactly what the song's about, so I don't quite see why you would disagree with it. I guess Ed's wrong, eh?

I've never heard this, when did he say it? Sounds interesting. I've also heard him say off he goes is about the pope so...

#1: Quote your source. #2 Ed says a lot of stuff; he loves to babble about his songs after the fact. #3 Read the words and see what THEY say--to YOU, not what Ed says. #4 My point is the same, either way, #5 I acknowledge the possibility that it is about Boeing workers, #6 see #4, #7 Why are there so many smug and self-righteous assholes whose responses are less than friendly?, #8, see #1 before you act like #7.

My point about insignificance is that these people didn't protest; they allowed things to happen--allowed the bombs to fall. Dosn't matter if they work for Bowing or McDonalds.If Ed said that "Severed Hand" was about the Muslim belief in cutting off the hands of theives, would you believe that? Would the obvious content of the lyrics suddenly become irrelevant or wrong? Whether they made them or not is secondary. And how I read the lyrics of a song is based solely on what is contained within the confines of those lyrics.

he did quote his source earlier in the thread when I asked him where he had heard that

I like your interpretation a lot orchiddoctor. This song works well because most of these takes complement each other. The small town america (you), boeing (ed?), and victims of the bombing (my take at first, but I'm less sure now) create a much larger, richer picture. Privelaging one doesn't negate the other.

and that alive is about incest...

Listen to the lyrics, its what the small town is known for and where most of the people in that town work at. He isn't lying this time. He mentioned it in Kitchener too, I think.

My point is that you should read text as text. There is nothing in the lyrics to point at anyone specific; it is all general. Bunch of folks at a bar watching the end of the world. Eddie loves to say things about his songs well after the fact, true. But it simply doesn't matter, and my post was not intended to be about whether this was a song about Boeing workers or not.

If it is about Boeing workers, what are they so upset about? They are proud of the aircraft they build.

Again--the lyrics are universal. This town could be in France, North Korea, anywhere where people congregate and play C-3. It's about the insignificance of those who do nothing. We all pay taxes and support the government, so we are all guilty of the planes and the bombs.

Even assuming that the song were to say, "Please forgive us Boeing workers," the thematic would still be about indifference. Besides, Eddie loves to make his songs fit specific situations after the fact.

Please do not place me in the middle of some anal argument about who the subject is.

I'm only interested in the text.

Here are the lyrics to the Grateful Dead tune, "Bertha"

I had a hard run
Running from your window
I was all night running, running, running
I wonder if you care?
I had a run-in
Run around and run down
Run around a corner
Run smack into a tree

I had to move
Really had to move
That's why if you please
I am on my bended knees
Bertha don't you come around here anymore


Dressed myself in green
I went down to the sea
Try to see what's going down
Maybe read between the lines
Had a feeling I was falling, falling, falling


Turned around to see
Heard a voice calling, calling, calling
You was comin after me
Back to me


I had to move
Really had to move
That's why if you please
I am on my bended knees
Bertha don't you come around here anymore


Ran into a rainstorm
Ducked into a bar door
It was all night pouring, pouring rain
But not a drop on me


Test me, test me
Why don't you arrest me?
Throw me in the jail house
Until the sun goes down
Till it go down


I had to move
Really had to move
That's why if you please
I am on my bended knees
Bertha don't you come around here anymore


About a woman the speaker is trying to get away from? About a man with a dinling problem who ends up in jail on ocassion?

Wait: Jerry Garcia later said that it was a song about a mechanical fan in the Dead's office that was noisy and annoying.

Really?

Read only what is given to you and do not let the author tell you what it is about. Especially by a man who said that "Oceans" was about his surfboard.


It simply isn't important.

But Eddie said so!!!!!

I do, but when you get told by the guy who wrote it what it is about, it becomes difficult to put that meaning aside. You can think about what it means to you, and what you perceive it to be about, but when discussing it in a thread about a specific meaning of the song, I think that it is relevant to talk about it in the sense that it was wrote.

"Listen to the lyrics." That's exactly what I'm doing: I'm listening to the lyrics, not Eddie. If you find that Ed's comments influence your reading, why not tell us how they do so and what your reading is? I'm curious to know how making the people in the bar from Seattle makes one bit of difference to what the song is about. Not a bit. They are still insignificant, useless people who did nothing to stop the bombs or ,as someone else put it, they are recognizing the futilility of politcal action. Nowhere do the lyrics suggest that they could have prevented the bombs by walking off the job or that they hold themselves to blame for making them or that they are from anywhere in particular.

It doesn't matter what Ed said: it matters only what is in the actual text of the song.

Is Glorified G really about Dave A.' b-b guns? And does that matter.


If you want to discuss "Insignificance" based upon Eddie's subsequent comments, why not do so instead of finding fault with mine for ignoring those comments? I think if you tried to place those comments onto the text you would see they just don't fit.

So many of Bob Dylan's songs were obviously influence by personal events, but who cares? We read them for the universal thoughts.

Same with this song. What does the text say? Nothing about Seattle or planes or Boeing; so I read it for what it does say.

Look, if Eddie told you that it was about some fans at a baseball game getting hammered by fould balls, would you simply believe that and move on? Let's assume Ed did say what none of you can quote. Big deal. He's telling you something you would not find in the song to begin with, or you would have found it. Does the alleged fact that it's about Boeing workers alter the words any?

Let's assume they do. Not ONE of you has gone on to describe or explain what the lyrics mean or are trying to convey. Not one of you has any thoughts on the subject. Not one of you has said anything other than it is about Boeing workers. So what? Try to add something intelligent to your posts.

And show us the quote: show us this remark wasn't just a half drunk Eddie mouthing off.

What do you think of my take on the song? That is the question.


My point is that it is unimportant in art what the artists claims his work is about; it is what you see in it and how you deal with what is inside it.

If you want a thread on whether Eddie said this or that about Boeing, start one--or about other songs Ed has "explained."

My comments are about the song as it stands, as Stip printed it. "All in all it's noone's fault."

Jeeze, get past the alleged comment and look at the words. The alleged comment is irrelevant.

You will see that the words contain the ideas hey contain regardless as to whether or not these folks are from Seattle or Newark, N.J. Whether they build the death planes or are farmers. They are in a bar lamenting their lack of action.

Enough.

What use is text devoid of context? If you want to allow that the author's interpretation of a song shouldn't be definitive than that is fine, but no art should be studied in a vacumn. Riot Act doesn't make sense without understanding what it felt like to be a progresive at the height of Bush's power. Avocado doesn't make sense without knowing about the war in Iraq

I'm also not sure why you are so hostile to this boeing interpretation. Insignificance works as a song about the political awakening of people who need a good job to support their family but are uncomfortable about what their products are used for