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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:08 pm 
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mastaflatch wrote:
dirtyfrank0705 wrote:
This should be a great read, and may inspire me to write up my DEEP review. I'm hoping for a really good discussion there too.

hahaha

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:32 pm 
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Excellent summary, Stip. You encapsulate everything I like about Vitalogy as an album; everything that makes me respect it so much and think od it as fondly as I do.

Unfortunately, for me, where the album fails is musically. I love a few of the songs and for the most part like everything else, but it's not as strong musically as it is thematically. Other works of art can get away with this - a book can be great because of its ideas even if it's lacking in excellent prose, but music doesn't work that way.

That's a 100% value judgment, however, and I'm well aware that for many people Vitalogy could be an almost musically perfect record that loses something from its attempt at being something more. Long live the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:40 pm 
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mray10 wrote:
Excellent summary, Stip. You encapsulate everything I like about Vitalogy as an album; everything that makes me respect it so much and think od it as fondly as I do.

Unfortunately, for me, where the album fails is musically. I love a few of the songs and for the most part like everything else, but it's not as strong musically as it is thematically. Other works of art can get away with this - a book can be great because of its ideas even if it's lacking in excellent prose, but music doesn't work that way.

That's a 100% value judgment, however, and I'm well aware that for many people Vitalogy could be an almost musically perfect record that loses something from its attempt at being something more. Long live the difference.

What are it's musical failures? And which songs do you find weak?


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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:51 pm 
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mray10 wrote:
Long live the difference.


LTLD

Love the Long Distance. That sounds bad ass. I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:52 am 
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godsdice wrote:
mastaflatch wrote:
dirtyfrank0705 wrote:
This should be a great read, and may inspire me to write up my DEEP review. I'm hoping for a really good discussion there too.

hahaha


:x

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:09 am 
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dirtyfrank0705 wrote:
godsdice wrote:
mastaflatch wrote:
dirtyfrank0705 wrote:
This should be a great read, and may inspire me to write up my DEEP review. I'm hoping for a really good discussion there too.

hahaha


:x

:oops:

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:31 am 
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stip, that was a great essay. For someone like me, who's only come to know Vitalogy in the last year, it's been like a revelation. One of the best rock albums that I've ever heard. The combination of the music and the themes come together to produce something that I think is still slightly ahead of our time. The development of the band over their first three albums was phenomenally swift, and that would continue through No Code. They were almost, not quite, but almost, four different bands. And in many ways Vitalogy was their peak as a rock band recording music together. Musically, I guess they absorbed everything that they had ever heard, put it all together and produced something that was totally unique, but still recognizably rock music.

The greatness of the music, and it's legacy lies in how influential Vitalogy has become. Music written by younger bands like the Strokes, Interpol, Muse, MMJ and even such bands as 30 Seconds to Mars have echoes of the unique arrangement structures that are found in the songs on Vitalogy. They were the biggest band in the world when Vitalogy was released. It stands to reason that a whole lot of adolescents picked up guitars partly because of this album, and the two preceding albums. It's only natural that signs of this would still be a part of the music that those boys, now grown, are making today.

The only other comment that I have is that I think that it is a mistake to think of these songs as autobiographical in nature. It robs them of some of their power. I think that even though we know that the members of Pearl Jam were struggling with their fame, the pure commitment to the viewpoints found in the songs is not really the voice of one person. The songs may have grown out of personal feelings, but these feelings are stretched to a level of hyper-reality to make a point. No real person lives this intensely. Here is an analogy that I took from reading about the method school of acting under Lee Strasberg. They sought to tap into a pool of real emotion that provided the seed for the gestures used, but professional technique was necessary to project emotions to the level that would fill a theater. These emotions appear to be real, but no "real" person behaves with this kind of intensity. Much the same can be said for the songs on Vitalogy.

I'm really looking forward to what you have to say about each song.


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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:58 am 
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that's fair SLH--and I don't think the songs are autobiographical per se. if Vitalogy was just a record about not liking it when you are famous no one would care about it. But Eddie is clearly writing from a very particular situation--it is just that he writes abstractly enough here that the listener can insert their own autobiographical experiences into the mix

And as I've said many times before SLH, I defintiely lack the vocabulary to accurately describe what is going on in these songs musically besides a few adjectives. So if you (or Mine, or anyone else who really knows what they are talking about) feel like contributing what you can on that score I know I would love it and I'm sure others would too

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:19 am 
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SLH916 wrote:
The greatness of the music, and it's legacy lies in how influential Vitalogy has become. Music written by younger bands like the Strokes, Interpol, Muse, MMJ and even such bands as 30 Seconds to Mars have echoes of the unique arrangement structures that are found in the songs on Vitalogy. They were the biggest band in the world when Vitalogy was released. It stands to reason that a whole lot of adolescents picked up guitars partly because of this album, and the two preceding albums. It's only natural that signs of this would still be a part of the music that those boys, now grown, are making today.


If the arrangements were truly that original or unusual, I would agree. This is definitely a quirky disc, full of elastic dynamics (remarkably fine use of crescendo for a pop band) and odd time structures, but a looooong ways away from being so unique that you can definitively point to it as a guaranteed influence on those acts.


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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:34 am 
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Vitalogy is Pearl Jam's best album.


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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:00 am 
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Vitalogy and No Code are my reference albums when i judge other PJ albums. Those are the only 2 records i can listen to as an entity from the 1st track to the last.

Vitalogy is the big turn in PJ. This is their (Ed's) goodbye to anything related to stadium rock. No more big riffs no more big solos no more belting out from Eddie in other words no more wanking. It's weird however that some people think of Vitalogy as part of the 1st 3 albums and refer to No Code as the band's (Ed's) big change and narrowing the fan base on purpose. Like SLH I'm a recent addition to PJ's fan base and when i went trough their discography i didn't know anything about what the press thought of their albums or how well they were selling and even less i checked Internet forums to see what fans thought.
I adored Vitalogy from 1st listen. I love the aggressive rockers the slow pieces even the pseudo songs felt in place where they were.
The arrangements and structures are totally different than what they have previously done and definitely did influence a lot of new bands but I'll leave the detailed explanation to SLH.

I love how this album feels like an entity. I'd say the main team here is taking strong positions in various forms. Almost every song is a bold statement. Like Corduroy (the song for the kids in the 1st row) or a lighter subject like the demise of vinyl in Spin The Black Circle and social awareness with Better Man obviously a song with a strong and yet subtle message against violence on women/domestic violence.

This is also the album that should logically divide fans in 2 groups the 1st the Even Flow one and the second the Corduroy one. This is not an album of new material to play live at all like the Even Flow group likes. This is stuff you need to listen in silence without some 10000 kids yelling the lyrics around you. This is stuff full of details and subtleness that is worth a close listen with decent cans. This is an album that has continuity with an end that almost wants to freak you out and tests how much you can take.

I have a problem with Yield and forward because the albums have a bunch of songs on that brake the continuity is really hard to listen to those albums from start to end without some songs being just background music that fails to get my attention to the point i have trouble remembering some songs. And I've seen a lot of fans tear albums into peaces and like only parts of it or re-assemble the track lists or add some lost dogs that were original shelved.
Vitalogy on the other hand is mostly a hit or a miss. You either love it or you really don't.

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:29 am 
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Angus wrote:
Vitalogy is Pearl Jam's best album.


:thumbsup: correct


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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:21 pm 
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clint72 wrote:
Angus wrote:
Vitalogy is Pearl Jam's best album.


:thumbsup: correct

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:22 pm 
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Mine wrote:
This is also the album that should logically divide fans in 2 groups the 1st the Even Flow one and the second the Corduroy one. This is not an album of new material to play live at all like the Even Flow group likes. This is stuff you need to listen in silence without some 10000 kids yelling the lyrics around you.


Perhaps in theory, except all the even flow kids still really love this record as well--unless by that you meant the casual radio fans. It's no code where the band lost us

Unless you mean the casual radio fan, but even then corduroy and betterman were hugely succesful and that was without any promotion at all.


anywho, last exit up shortly

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:44 pm 
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stip wrote:
Mine wrote:
This is also the album that should logically divide fans in 2 groups the 1st the Even Flow one and the second the Corduroy one. This is not an album of new material to play live at all like the Even Flow group likes. This is stuff you need to listen in silence without some 10000 kids yelling the lyrics around you.


Perhaps in theory, except all the even flow kids still really love this record as well--unless by that you meant the casual radio fans. It's no code where the band lost us

Unless you mean the casual radio fan, but even then corduroy and betterman were hugely succesful and that was without any promotion at all.


anywho, last exit up shortly

I do mean in theory. No Code is not the logical divider. I wonder if there were other reasons beyond the solely musical ones that No Code is considered the big turn rather than Vitalogy.

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:04 pm 
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Mine wrote:
stip wrote:
Mine wrote:
This is also the album that should logically divide fans in 2 groups the 1st the Even Flow one and the second the Corduroy one. This is not an album of new material to play live at all like the Even Flow group likes. This is stuff you need to listen in silence without some 10000 kids yelling the lyrics around you.


Perhaps in theory, except all the even flow kids still really love this record as well--unless by that you meant the casual radio fans. It's no code where the band lost us

Unless you mean the casual radio fan, but even then corduroy and betterman were hugely succesful and that was without any promotion at all.


anywho, last exit up shortly

I do mean in theory. No Code is not the logical divider. I wonder if there were other reasons beyond the solely musical ones that No Code is considered the big turn rather than Vitalogy.


unfortuantely when theory doesn't match onto practice it is usually a sign that the theory got it wrong. Nothing destroys a great theory like a few inconvienent facts :) Which makes the interesting question why did No Code become the divider?

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:04 pm 
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Last Exit has always been my favorite of the album openers—not simply because of how good the song is but because of the way it sets up the entire record that follows. It’s not just the first song on the record—it begins an entire experience

It is clear from the discordant tuning that begins the song that there is something new happening here. Once opened with Master/Slave to set the mood, and Go had its own ‘tune up’ sequence but in both cases they were fully realized pieces of music. The tuning process before Last Exit gives it (and with it the record) a sense of immediacy that what came before simply lacked. Those songs may have been heavy, and they may have been urgent, but they didn’t have that sense of capturing THIS particular moment in time. It is almost like Last Exit (and with it the record) pours out of the band—as if they walked into a room, picked up their instruments, and the record spilled out of them.

Musically Last Exit is a desperate, almost violent song. The crashing drums, the jagged lines of the guitars—it’s a song you can cut yourself on—and the various peaks and climaxes of the song lack any kind of clarity, mirroring pretty much perfectly the desperation and confusion in the lyrics.

Last Exit is the first half of a suicide note, written in confusion, anger, and commitment—the issue at hand, what the record will try and work through, is whether the commitment is to life or death

The first verse makes it clear that a life has spiraled out of control—“Lives opened and trashed, look ma watch me crash, no time to question, why’d nothing last?” This is not the cry of a person dying of depression or apathy, but a flame burning itself out—one that doesn’t know how to slow down and take control over the frantic pace of his own life, of events quickly spiraling out of control (the parallels to the rise of the band, the destruction of Eddie the human and the birth of Eddie the symbol, should be obvious) This comes across just as powerfully in the set of lyrics that didn’t make the song, although these are perhaps a little more resigned than the set of lyrics ultimately included

Die on a hilltop, eyeing the crows, waiting for your lids to close but you want to watch as they peck your flesh…Ironic that they go for the eyes first…

It’s a wonderfully evocative image—a body exhausted, watching the crows circle and descend, refusing to grant the morbid wish to watch your own destruction. You won’t know how the story ends if you walk out on it.

The second set makes the suicide theme even more prominent

Once resigned, dictating your demise seems only fair
Built in effect of the system…control
If one cannot control his life, will he be driven to control his death


The use of the words system and control is important here. There is a sense of being trapped by forces that are beyond our own ability to master—the way in which events spiral out of control seemingly without any input from the people who live them. In the end the only act of control, the only act of agency, open to the person involved may be choosing the circumstances surrounding their death.

And that’s what the rest of the song is about—death. The question becomes what kind of death. Clearly death as suicide is present as subtext throughout the song, especially with the 3 days lyrics—the image of a body lying for days waiting to see if the body is discovered, if the act itself has meaning. But death can also be interpreted as a moment of rebirth—a phoenix dying to rise again, and the elemental imagery present in this part of the song (the sun, the ocean, the idea of purification, masks burned away, past burdens drowned, shedding skin) gives one a sense of hope and optimism, although all of these processes will be painful. A life is at a crossroads—and either the person will walk away stronger than they were before, or the journey is going to break them, but clearly a choice must be made—things cannot go on as they were before…for better or for worse.

Vitalogy is a time of reflection made standing at that crossroads—reviewing the circumstances that lead the singer to them and weighing which path to take. At the end of the record a choice will have to be made. Eddie’s plea to let his spirt pass is a cry for some form of closure. Life simply cannot continue in this state. This is his last chance, the possibility of healing through music the last exit on a road heading inexorably towards destruction.

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:22 pm 
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stip wrote:
Mine wrote:
stip wrote:
Mine wrote:
This is also the album that should logically divide fans in 2 groups the 1st the Even Flow one and the second the Corduroy one. This is not an album of new material to play live at all like the Even Flow group likes. This is stuff you need to listen in silence without some 10000 kids yelling the lyrics around you.


Perhaps in theory, except all the even flow kids still really love this record as well--unless by that you meant the casual radio fans. It's no code where the band lost us

Unless you mean the casual radio fan, but even then corduroy and betterman were hugely succesful and that was without any promotion at all.


anywho, last exit up shortly

I do mean in theory. No Code is not the logical divider. I wonder if there were other reasons beyond the solely musical ones that No Code is considered the big turn rather than Vitalogy.


unfortuantely when theory doesn't match onto practice it is usually a sign that the theory got it wrong. Nothing destroys a great theory like a few inconvienent facts :) Which makes the interesting question why did No Code become the divider?

I remember somebody, i think Isaac, recently wrote here that no matter what everybody says Vitalogy when it came out was in fact a disappointment.
What i was thinking is how much impact did have the band's success with the 1st 2 albums and the end of the grunge era of the period, the change of the drummer and of course the open dislikeing for the album of some band members to the way Vitalogy and even more No Code was accepted. I'm waiting for Alessiana's input, she has a great memory and thus knowledge of the band and the fan base. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: Opening thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:33 pm 
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Mine wrote:
stip wrote:
Mine wrote:
stip wrote:
Mine wrote:
This is also the album that should logically divide fans in 2 groups the 1st the Even Flow one and the second the Corduroy one. This is not an album of new material to play live at all like the Even Flow group likes. This is stuff you need to listen in silence without some 10000 kids yelling the lyrics around you.


Perhaps in theory, except all the even flow kids still really love this record as well--unless by that you meant the casual radio fans. It's no code where the band lost us

Unless you mean the casual radio fan, but even then corduroy and betterman were hugely succesful and that was without any promotion at all.


anywho, last exit up shortly

I do mean in theory. No Code is not the logical divider. I wonder if there were other reasons beyond the solely musical ones that No Code is considered the big turn rather than Vitalogy.


unfortuantely when theory doesn't match onto practice it is usually a sign that the theory got it wrong. Nothing destroys a great theory like a few inconvienent facts :) Which makes the interesting question why did No Code become the divider?

I remember somebody, i think Isaac, recently wrote here that no matter what everybody says Vitalogy when it came out was in fact a disappointment.
What i was thinking is how much impact did have the band's success with the 1st 2 albums and the end of the grunge era of the period, the change of the drummer and of course the open dislikeing for the album of some band members to the way Vitalogy and even more No Code was accepted. I'm waiting for Alessiana's input, she has a great memory and thus knowledge of the band and the fan base. :wink:


yeah but Isaac is wrong on this. I don't know anyone who was disappointed with Vitalogy. It had some weird affectations for sure, and the band's video policy was irritating, but the fact that it didn't sell as well is (I think) due to the lack of promotion behind it. If the band had promoted corduroy or betterman (it is telling that the two biggest songs from that album were never even released as singles) it would have sold even more

the killer was No Code--the songs were not as good (it is telling that there were no songs on it like elderly woman, black, betterman, corduroy, etc that became big hits despite lack of promotion) and who you are was a terrible first choice for a single so the record did not generate positive word of mouth, etc

But this should probably go into Isaac's vitalogy was a disappointment thread :)

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 Post subject: Re: A guided tour of Vitalogy: last exit
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:35 pm 
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i think last exit is the best song on that album. i'm not sure.

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