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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:54 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Mine wrote:
If a song is a good well WRITTEN song it's going to sound good down striped to a voice and an instrument because that means it stands on it's own without the help of what would be the arrangement.


And this is still not accurate. Frequently, the arranging and instrumentation is an integral part of the song creation. Frank Zappa's got a few records that would be good examples of this, or varying metal songs.

Let's be practically here and stay within PJ margins. I do agree with what you say here i know i didn't make that clear at all before.
What I'm saying is that no matter how a song was conceived if it's a good song it will stay that way even down striped to the bare minimum.
If you start arguing that, not knowing exactly who does what in a situation like PJs (where a producer doesn't seem to be as present in the arranging process), whoever wrote a song means absolutely nothing.

A cool bass line or guitar solo it's not a good song but it's a cool bass line and a guitar solo.

McParadigm wrote:
I don't know where you get this from, but in the US a copyright covers melody, arrangement, and lyrical content....the melody in question being as much as you choose to include in the original track. Whatever melodic pieces a songwriter includes in the original song, they're all involved in the copyright. Essentially, you're copyrighting a recording of sound. You can send a tape with 10 songs and copyright them all for the price of a single song, because you're copyrighting a recording. Hell, you can even fart into a microphone and copyright that recording.

I was talking specifically about songwriting credits not copyrights in general. Having songwriting credits(or acquiring those rights) it's a big deal for bands/musicians as far as i know. If you cover a song usually you don't get any credits for the music but only for the recording as far as i understand it. In practice that means most of the money from the sales of a hit cover song go to the original writer of the song not to the whoever rearranged and performed it. I'm generalising here because I'm not an expert.
For example John Fogerty had to leave the rights of some songs he wrote to a recording company he was leaving. That same recording company sued him because he used a chord structure from one of the songs that rc had the rights to in a new song. The rc lost because only the copying of the melody can be considered plagiarism. That's not even arrangement. I wonder what are the rules for copying an instrumental line introduced in a cover (meaning not linked to any songwriting copyright)?

McParadigm wrote:
It's a dirge anyway you sell it. Just because he wrote it on acoustic guitar, and it's slow, doesn't make it a folk ballad. Also, when a band copyrights their work they send the completed song in, meaning all included parts. If it was a folk ballad, and the rest was just arrangement, you would just send the demo in because that's what you consider the song.

I wish i could track that article down. I didn't hear that demo, Jeff described it as folk and said how much the song changed after Stone and Mike worked on it.
All I'm trying to say is that in Jeff's own words the end result isn't what he envisioned the song to be like but nonetheless and rightfully he has 100% of the songwriting credits for it and people will cite it as an example of Jeff's great songs while in Jeff's own words the NAIS he wrote is different than the one on Binaural.

It's the oposite of what you were explaining before. The song wasn't arranged as it was written but the arrangement changed the song considerably. From what I've read on RM (and I'm not claiming this is true for everybody) people like what Stone and Mike did on the song better than the actual melody which is probably most of what was left from the demo along with the lyrics.



McParadigm wrote:
Everybody in this band has offered up a sucky song or three. Maybe he regrets a particular track or tracks.

Yeah but Jeff didn't really have much of his songs on albums and he used plural so if it's 3 that's like half on studio albums.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:29 pm 
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Mine wrote:
I was talking specifically about songwriting credits not copyrights in general. Having songwriting credits(or acquiring those rights) it's a big deal for bands/musicians as far as i know. If you cover a song usually you don't get any credits for the music but only for the recording as far as i understand it. In practice that means most of the money from the sales of a hit cover song go to the original writer of the song not to the whoever rearranged and performed it. I'm generalising here because I'm not an expert.


Right, you don't get credit for a rearranged cover because your recording is based on the original idea of someone else. The key is in the origination of the song. However, you do copyright your recording of it...so you'll get a certain percentage based on that copyright, but the songwriter will get the funds directed through songwriting credit. And that's a larger percent than is given for performance.

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For example John Fogerty had to leave the rights of some songs he wrote to a recording company he was leaving.


He offered the rights to those songs in exchange for getting out of future obligations in his contract. The rights to those songs were almost guaranteed to be worth more than his future output, and so he used them to get away from a company he didn't want anything to do with anymore.

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That same recording company sued him because he used a chord structure from one of the songs that rc had the rights to in a new song.


The claim was that the chorus section of each song was the same.

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The rc lost because only the copying of the melody can be considered plagiarism. That's not even arrangement.


They lost when Fogerty brought his guitar in and played the two songs back to back on the witness stand, showing that they were not the same.

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All I'm trying to say is that in Jeff's own words the end result isn't what he envisioned the song to be like but nonetheless and rightfully he has 100% of the songwriting credits for it and people will cite it as an example of Jeff's great songs while in Jeff's own words the NAIS he wrote is different than the one on Binaural.


Jeff wrote:
It was just a little ditty on a demo that I kind of played some hand drums on, and had this little song. Actually, I spent quite a bit of time with the lyrics, and I think Stone initially said, 'Let's try that one.' There were little sections of the song [where] I definitely heard Mike doing his thing, so I kinda said, 'Hey, man, you need to write a theme for these little sections.' It's pretty cool to see a little song that I wrote being played by everyone. I mean, I can almost kind of stand back and just watch this great band play a song...and take it to a completely different level. Mike and Ed [Vedder], they have that ability where they can really raise the level of anything that they play.


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McParadigm wrote:
Everybody in this band has offered up a sucky song or three. Maybe he regrets a particular track or tracks.

Yeah but Jeff didn't really have much of his songs on albums and he used plural so if it's 3 that's like half on studio albums.


So this quote you speak of...he was talking about just the last handful of records?


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:29 pm 
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I would rather have razorblades put against my balls then listen to a solo album by Jeff Ament.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:02 am 
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spenno wrote:
Mine wrote:
If that means no Jeff songs on the next PJ album that's great news :twisted:

That actually is possible. Remember Mike kept talking about 4-5 ideas while Jeff mentioned 20.


Are you for real with that statement?

My only misgivings about the timing of this is that he might reserve songs for his solo record that would otherwise be Pearl Jam songs.

Jeff's songs are always interesting if nothing else - and often are downright compelling:

Why Go, Jeremy, Leash (probably), W.M.A. (probably), Nothingman, Smile, Pilate, Low Light, Push Me Pull Me, Gods' Dice, Nothing As It Seems, Sleight Of Hand, Ghost, Help Help, Half Full, Other Side, Big Wave, Army Reserve...

I'm an especially big fan of the songs from the Riot Act era, they're all fantastic.

I also just got the lame pun in the album title - AtoneMENT. Oh brother...


i have to wholly endorse this post. except that i think half full is my least favorite riot act song. not bad, but not as interesting as the two tracks that precede it. but i guess that's a discussion for another time and another thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:03 am 
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I don't think anybody in the band is a particularly good songwriter to be honest. I think they do well individually getting an idea, however, their success to me has mostly to do with their collaboration and how they work as a band. I can't tell you how many times i've read when they're ready to work on a new album that many of the members just bring in guitar parts or riffs they've been working on, and not complete songs. Bottom line is that Pearl Jam is a lot bigger than the sum of its parts. I think we give these guys too much credit individually, and we should just appreciate the magic the 5 have when they're together.

But that's just me.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:13 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Mine wrote:
That same recording company sued him because he used a chord structure from one of the songs that rc had the rights to in a new song.


The claim was that the chorus section of each song was the same.

The chord progression specifically.

Quote:
All I'm trying to say is that in Jeff's own words the end result isn't what he envisioned the song to be like but nonetheless and rightfully he has 100% of the songwriting credits for it and people will cite it as an example of Jeff's great songs while in Jeff's own words the NAIS he wrote is different than the one on Binaural.


Jeff wrote:
It was just a little ditty on a demo that I kind of played some hand drums on, and had this little song. Actually, I spent quite a bit of time with the lyrics, and I think Stone initially said, 'Let's try that one.' There were little sections of the song [where] I definitely heard Mike doing his thing, so I kinda said, 'Hey, man, you need to write a theme for these little sections.' It's pretty cool to see a little song that I wrote being played by everyone. I mean, I can almost kind of stand back and just watch this great band play a song...and take it to a completely different level. Mike and Ed [Vedder], they have that ability where they can really raise the level of anything that they play.


http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/search/g ... _id=812822

Jeff wrote:
"Nothing As It Seems" was like a little folk song. When Stone got excited about it, I was like, 'wow, if it had drums on it, and if [guitarist] Mike [McCready] was kind of featured.' All of the sudden it became this whole other thing.





McParadigm wrote:
So this quote you speak of...he was talking about just the last handful of records?

It was vague the way i remember it. I think it might be on Imagine in Cornice.
I guess it goes from Yield to RA. In that Billboard interview he says Yield was the 1st sessions he actually brought a demo in and played it.

I gave some thought about comparing songwriting and i think it ends up being a (musical) style preference argument at the end of the day even more than plain taste.

In my opinion a song without a strong melody can't be considered great songwriting. It's just my personal opinion but this is one of the most transcendent ingredients in the most various genres and has been like that for quite some time. It's probably the most distinctive part of a song (and the least affected by covers and rearrangements in general). It's what people remember mostly, even more than lyrics.
I'm kind of embarrassed to post the following excerpt here given my reputation on this parts :oops: :
Quote:
What about you personally, and lyrically?

I have a few on ukulele that I like. For me, I judge it by melodic substance these days. It's something Johnny Ramone drilled in my head. I think it's where we came from with the first few records, you took a piece of music and added your throat to be part of the noise -- if there was any melody there, it was unconscious.

A song like "Black", for instance?

I imagine that has some melody to it. I think being conscious about it, really focusing to make something beautiful...there's a difference between a song and music. I think it's the melodic structure. I think the songs that connect are the melodic ones, they are the really musical ones. I haven't figured the theory out yet, but there's a difference and music is the goal.


http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/pea ... ed_to_rock

That's pretty much how i see it myself, especially about the musical quality and the distinction between music and song.

I don't think melody is an absolute must but rythm lead songs seem to work better as an exception than as a rule, especially as far as vocals are concerned.

I think that people are to easily praised as songwriters. It's a concept that seems to have changed over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:56 pm 
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Overall, I am not a fan of Jeff Ament Pearl Jam songs. Until Cameron joined, he was my least favorite songwriter in the band. (tho I really like a few of his tunes, mostly musically).

Nevertheless, I'd still like to hear what he has to offer as a solo artist. I enjoy Stone's CD and I actually listen to Jack's CD a lot (mostly at work as background music, but I enjoy it). Ed's stuff is great too. None of it is groundbreaking stuff, but it's enjoyable.

I really enjoy the two Three Fish records. I am willing to check out Jeff's solo and see what he can bring to the table. If it means less material for Pearl Jam, so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:16 pm 
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Why Go, Jeremy, Smile, Help Help, and Army Reserve.

These are not the only good PJ songs Jeff has written, just my favorites of his songs --- especially Smile and Army Reserve. He is a very good songwriter.

pnjguy wrote:
I don't think anybody in the band is a particularly good songwriter to be honest.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours. I think, however, that Stone and Eddie are great songwriters. They've done some great work over the years. Mike has had success, I don't think he's gotten to the level of great songwriter yet, but he did have some great stuff on Avocado (MITS!!). Jeff and Matt are just different. Jeff's music is 50/50 for me. I love the songs I've mentioned earlier in the post, and also love Pilate and Help, Help. Some I don't care for though (Lowlight :thumbsdown: , yeah I know most love it). Matt.... I dunno. I fucking LOVE You Are, but honestly don't even know what else he's written.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:33 pm 
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Sandler wrote:
I think, however, that Stone and Eddie are great songwriters.


And i respect yours. I believe Stone was a good songwriter, but he really isn't anymore imo, and that could be a function of how the band makes music now as opposed to in the earlier days, it being more collaborative. Who knows, i just can't discount the success Stone and Eddie had together versus Stone and Eddie seperate. It's a pretty distinctive difference. My opinion, stone can write music, but not a melody, and Eddie can write a melody but not music. Together they work perfectly, but individually, they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:54 pm 
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pnjguy wrote:
they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.

:shake:

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:22 pm 
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Mine wrote:
pnjguy wrote:
they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.

:shake:


:shake: to you too. Individually, they're not at that level.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:05 am 
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THat new Cornell song is just brilliant,
as is Corgan's latest piece of shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:10 am 
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Mine wrote:
pnjguy wrote:
they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.

:shake:


Mine and spenno - in agreeance at last!

Honestly, Thom Yorke has never been more than a writer of mediocre, meandering dirges and Cornell and Corgan haven't written a tune worth remembering in over a decade.

All five songwriters in Pearl Jam are easily better than those three.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:45 am 
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Sandler wrote:
they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.





:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:06 am 
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Angus wrote:
THat new Cornell song is just brilliant,
as is Corgan's latest piece of shit.


And S/T was amazing :arrow:

I was talking overall in their respective careers anyway, and i was comparing them to songwriters from their era. Stone or Vedder have not put out anything individually that touches Mellon-collie or Siamese. And smashing pumpkins was/is Billy Corgan, unlike pearl jam where its more collaborative.

spenno wrote:
Honestly, Thom Yorke has never been more than a writer of mediocre, meandering dirges....


I would have to disagree. Eraser and Euphoria were critically acclaimed, more than anything Stone or Eddie have ever put out period.

spenno wrote:
All five songwriters in Pearl Jam are easily better than those three.


wow, just wow. Am i on synergy right now?

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:40 am 
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pnjguy wrote:
spenno wrote:
Honestly, Thom Yorke has never been more than a writer of mediocre, meandering dirges....


I would have to disagree. Eraser and Euphoria were critically acclaimed, more than anything Stone or Eddie have ever put out period.


Guess we just have different tastes, I'd easily say Into The Wild is better than anything Radiohead or Thom Yorke have ever done.

pnjguy wrote:
spenno wrote:
All five songwriters in Pearl Jam are easily better than those three.


wow, just wow. Am i on synergy right now?


Sure, it's a big statement but it rings true, at least for me. I don't think there's anything special about Corgan's music at the best of times, though I liked some of the guitar textures he was pulling circa 1993-1996, and Soundgarden were a pretty good rock band who made some pretty good records but I wouldn't rate them any higher than that (and I'd credit that to the band as a whole, rather than Cornell as a songwriter).

There's plenty of people I think Pearl Jam pale in comparison to as far as songwriting goes (Neil Young, John Lennon, Nick Drake, Pete Townshend etc.) but I think they wipe the floor, individually and as a group, with anything ever done by Yorke, Cornell or Corgan.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:54 am 
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well...Jeff Ament, god bless him, ain't got a chance against Vedder, Yorke, Cornell or Corgan as a songwriter, and i'm sure he knows this and he would probably laugh at this discussion. but then, PJ's a very collaborative unit and in my taste, they blow Cornell and Corgan out of the water big time. Radiohead, on the other hand, is a centrist band (around Yorke, of course) but they have wildcards in Jonny Greenwood, which is an amazing, REALLY amazing musician/arranger, and the rest of the band is much more evolutive and precise than PJ. there's no use in comparing them because at some point, it's all down to taste - we're talking about a Jeff solo album anyway; i wouldn't mind him hitting the big time.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:10 am 
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If we're talking about songwriters in their prime, pnjguy is bang on the money. You can't expect PJ chat to have a clue, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:21 am 
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spenno wrote:
Guess we just have different tastes, I'd easily say Into The Wild is better than anything Radiohead or Thom Yorke have ever done.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:34 am 
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Soma. wrote:
spenno wrote:
Guess we just have different tastes, I'd easily say Into The Wild is better than anything Radiohead or Thom Yorke have ever done.

Image


:|


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