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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:51 pm 
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jeremy is a great song, even by pj standards. the fact that it may be overplayed does not diminish said greatness.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Mine wrote:
Angus wrote:
spenno wrote:
Why Go, Jeremy, Nothingman, Smile, Pilate, Low Light, Push Me Pull Me, Gods' Dice, Nothing As It Seems, Sleight Of Hand, Help Help, Half Full, Other Side, Army Reserve...


Mine wrote:
pop rock fillers.


6-7 songs out of my top 30 here. :|

:haha:
Only 2 of those are 100% Ament.


How so, Mine?

I went to pains to NOT include any stuff that was co-written with other band members, eg Oceans or Deep.

The above tunes are 100% Jeff's musical creations (lyrics are irrelevant to this discussion, surely).


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:01 pm 
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spenno wrote:
Mine wrote:
Angus wrote:
spenno wrote:
Why Go, Jeremy, Nothingman, Smile, Pilate, Low Light, Push Me Pull Me, Gods' Dice, Nothing As It Seems, Sleight Of Hand, Help Help, Half Full, Other Side, Army Reserve...


Mine wrote:
pop rock fillers.


6-7 songs out of my top 30 here. :|

:haha:
Only 2 of those are 100% Ament.


How so, Mine?

I went to pains to NOT include any stuff that was co-written with other band members, eg Oceans or Deep.

The above tunes are 100% Jeff's musical creations (lyrics are irrelevant to this discussion, surely).

Oh no they aren't because with PJ the credits are not just lyrics when they say so but lyrics and melody.

For Smile is well known. There's a quote from Eddie saying he just started singing that note to the lyrics at a jam backstage of a show. You can tell which melodies are Eddie's and which are Jeff's. Jeff can't really come up with an interesting melody. For instance I've seen people on this board blaming Eddie for not doing anything interesting with his voice on NAIS which is bit silly considering he sung a melody written by somebody else. Also NAIS (one of PJ songs i like the least) was not really written by Jeff the way we know it. I've read it somewhere that Jeff's demo was a folky tune then Stone rewrote it and Mike did his guitar parts. You understand not much Jeff is left in the final product which is what a lot of people like about Jeff's songs with that i mean arrangements and "sound" (that would go under production even).
The actual songwriting is pretty poor except for some riffs that are perfectly fine (Jeremy, Smile...). My basic judgement about good songwriting is sounds good with just voice and guitar (or whatever single instrument for that matter) just to make clear what I'm talking about.
So what many people like about Jeff songs turns out to be other people's doings most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:12 am 
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Mine wrote:
spenno wrote:
Mine wrote:
Angus wrote:
spenno wrote:
Why Go, Jeremy, Nothingman, Smile, Pilate, Low Light, Push Me Pull Me, Gods' Dice, Nothing As It Seems, Sleight Of Hand, Help Help, Half Full, Other Side, Army Reserve...


Mine wrote:
pop rock fillers.


6-7 songs out of my top 30 here. :|

:haha:
Only 2 of those are 100% Ament.


How so, Mine?

I went to pains to NOT include any stuff that was co-written with other band members, eg Oceans or Deep.

The above tunes are 100% Jeff's musical creations (lyrics are irrelevant to this discussion, surely).

Oh no they aren't because with PJ the credits are not just lyrics when they say so but lyrics and melody.

For Smile is well known. There's a quote from Eddie saying he just started singing that note to the lyrics at a jam backstage of a show. You can tell which melodies are Eddie's and which are Jeff's. Jeff can't really come up with an interesting melody. For instance I've seen people on this board blaming Eddie for not doing anything interesting with his voice on NAIS which is bit silly considering he sung a melody written by somebody else. Also NAIS (one of PJ songs i like the least) was not really written by Jeff the way we know it. I've read it somewhere that Jeff's demo was a folky tune then Stone rewrote it and Mike did his guitar parts. You understand not much Jeff is left in the final product which is what a lot of people like about Jeff's songs with that i mean arrangements and "sound" (that would go under production even).


Er, no, I don't "understand". It's certainly your opinion (to which you're entitled), but it's not one I particularly share. Of course some collaboration is going to happen when five people get their hands on a song but c'mon, you're just outright denigrating Jeff's contributions to his own songs (and being very condescending about it, too).

The man has written or co-written some of the band's best songs - and I'd wager that unless you've personally heard Jeff's demos of the above songs then you're only basing your opinion on half-remembered conjecture and your own personal bias.

Mine wrote:
So what many people like about Jeff songs turns out to be other people's doings most of the time.


Uh, really. You don't say. Geez, good thing I've got you around to remind me how little I know.

For what it's worth, I think Ed's probably the least-interesting songwriter in the band. If I were to make a list of my favourite songs by the band, I doubt it would feature many Ed songs apart from perhaps Wishlist and RVM. I just seem to prefer the combination of Ed's lyrics/melodies with Stone, Jeff, Mike or Matt's music.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:28 am 
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Yeah,
the thing that bugs me is that you explain you don't like NAIS to further proof your point about not liking Jeff-songs; But then you go on that the finished NAIS as we know it is not at all the song Jeff wrote. Who then is to blame for you not liking NAIS? Unless you can send me the original Jeff demo of NAIS...


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:29 pm 
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Ah no! Only I'm to "blame" for not liking Jeff's songs. I gave the 2 examples because I've read about them that's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:45 pm 
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Quote:
The actual songwriting is pretty poor except for some riffs that are perfectly fine (Jeremy, Smile...). My basic judgement about good songwriting is sounds good with just voice and guitar (or whatever single instrument for that matter) just to make clear what I'm talking about.


That's a ridiculous way to measure songwriting.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:54 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Quote:
The actual songwriting is pretty poor except for some riffs that are perfectly fine (Jeremy, Smile...). My basic judgement about good songwriting is sounds good with just voice and guitar (or whatever single instrument for that matter) just to make clear what I'm talking about.


That's a ridiculous way to measure songwriting.

Maybe but that it's what it used to be referred to as songwriting. People used to get (and still do) full credits for something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:52 pm 
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Mine, why do you always denigrate the other band members while only giving Ed credit for anything Pearl Jam has ever done?

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Three Fish 1 was a great album, I also thought Dunes from Attention Dimension was stellar on a good system. looking forward to a solo album.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:56 pm 
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StoneIrons wrote:
Mine, why do you always denigrate the other band members while only giving Ed credit for anything Pearl Jam has ever done?

I don't do the 2nd part. I don't find particularly interesting or distinctive most of the stuff other people in the band did but that's different.
The 1st i do for fun.
It actually started the other way around (i was trying to make a point oposite to people who denigrate Eddie). Now I'm just being the voice out of the choir for discussion's sake. I'm not as bitter as i may appear from my posts nor I take all this that seriously.
I just don't think people should be consideret great songwriters because they are great musicians and are in a great band. Many people on synergy will attack you for even hinting at the possibility not everybody in the band is exactly equal which is inhuman and there's no band out here you can claim this about.
Stone and Jeff had side projects that went nowhere and I've even seen have trouble getting a record out in one case but i don't believe my denigration has anything to do with it. I think this at least makes them uninteresting for a lot of people and most of the fan base of the bigest band they're in.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:27 pm 
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whatever, Jeff going punk on us can't be a bad thing - i always thought that this style of music was perfect for shitty singers.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:10 pm 
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Mine wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Quote:
The actual songwriting is pretty poor except for some riffs that are perfectly fine (Jeremy, Smile...). My basic judgement about good songwriting is sounds good with just voice and guitar (or whatever single instrument for that matter) just to make clear what I'm talking about.


That's a ridiculous way to measure songwriting.

Maybe but that it's what it used to be referred to as songwriting. People used to get (and still do) full credits for something like that.


Songwriting is simply the act of creating a song. If I write a song, and it's just my voice and piano and nothing else...yeah, that's my song. And if somebody covers it but adds brass, then I still get credit for writing the song because the initial creation is mine. However, if I write another song on piano and decide to write bass and drum parts, or even a sax line for it, those pieces are all a part of my initial creation, of my initial vision of the song, and therefore all a part of the songwriting process.

Melodic design and lyric writing, and instrument arrangement, can be separated, into two parts, but when the songwriter involves all three in the initial process it is a part of that process.

But more importantly, not all songs are written to be performed in a solo setting. Regardless of chord structure or central location, there's no reason to assume that any song Jeff has offered Pearl Jam was written with anything other than an eventual full band arrangement in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:26 pm 
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Mine really knows his shit. :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:43 am 
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Jeff's a real dirty bitch. Some of his bass lines are phuckin phat. Love the occasional burble he puts in when closing out Cropduster live.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:52 am 
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McParadigm wrote:
Mine wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Quote:
The actual songwriting is pretty poor except for some riffs that are perfectly fine (Jeremy, Smile...). My basic judgement about good songwriting is sounds good with just voice and guitar (or whatever single instrument for that matter) just to make clear what I'm talking about.


That's a ridiculous way to measure songwriting.

Maybe but that it's what it used to be referred to as songwriting. People used to get (and still do) full credits for something like that.


Songwriting is simply the act of creating a song. If I write a song, and it's just my voice and piano and nothing else...yeah, that's my song. And if somebody covers it but adds brass, then I still get credit for writing the song because the initial creation is mine. However, if I write another song on piano and decide to write bass and drum parts, or even a sax line for it, those pieces are all a part of my initial creation, of my initial vision of the song, and therefore all a part of the songwriting process.

Melodic design and lyric writing, and instrument arrangement, can be separated, into two parts, but when the songwriter involves all three in the initial process it is a part of that process.

But more importantly, not all songs are written to be performed in a solo setting. Regardless of chord structure or central location, there's no reason to assume that any song Jeff has offered Pearl Jam was written with anything other than an eventual full band arrangement in mind.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what my point is all about. If a song is a good well WRITTEN song it's going to sound good down striped to a voice and an instrument because that means it stands on it's own without the help of what would be the arrangement. If a writers writes instrument lines he is in effect arranging a song not writing it. This is actually a legal matter at least as far as I know people have trouble trying copyrighting instrumental lines because only the (vocal) melody is considered under copyright and only copying that counts as plagiarism.

I've given the example of NAIS because i find it interesting. I don't think anybody recognizes NAIS as a folk ballad which is what was brought to the studio with of course PJ playing it in mind but as Jeff described it, it changed a lot from Jeff's original idea of the song. Also picking up any song from No Code and arguing it's 100% Jeff's musical creation is in contrast to anything Jeff(or anybody else in the band) ever said about the recording of that album.
If a song needs an elaborate arrangement etc. it's not a good example of WRITING a song but it's a good example of getting something decent out of an uninteresting song by other means.
Jeff deffinitelly can write cool bass lines and riffs and I have nothing against him doing that in the future but anything else is better left to other people. He himself said he regrets some of his songs ended on albums.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:14 am 
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Mine wrote:
He himself said he regrets some of his songs ended on albums.


I would like if you could show me where he said some of the things you said here in the topic. Cause for me, there's not a single Jeff song I don't like, Sweet Lew included.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:38 am 
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Angus wrote:
Mine wrote:
He himself said he regrets some of his songs ended on albums.


I would like if you could show me where he said some of the things you said here in the topic. Cause for me, there's not a single Jeff song I don't like, Sweet Lew included.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:42 am 
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Angus wrote:
Mine wrote:
He himself said he regrets some of his songs ended on albums.


I would like if you could show me where he said some of the things you said here in the topic. Cause for me, there's not a single Jeff song I don't like, Sweet Lew included.

Why shouldn't you?

I'll try to remember the articles those things are from. That one above is i think from last year and must be linked on the forum somewhere, i think it was in the news section that doesn't exist anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:06 pm 
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Mine wrote:
If a song is a good well WRITTEN song it's going to sound good down striped to a voice and an instrument because that means it stands on it's own without the help of what would be the arrangement.


And this is still not accurate. Frequently, the arranging and instrumentation is an integral part of the song creation. Frank Zappa's got a few records that would be good examples of this, or varying metal songs.

Quote:
If a writers writes instrument lines he is in effect arranging a song not writing it. This is actually a legal matter at least as far as I know people have trouble trying copyrighting instrumental lines because only the (vocal) melody is considered under copyright and only copying that counts as plagiarism.


I don't know where you get this from, but in the US a copyright covers melody, arrangement, and lyrical content....the melody in question being as much as you choose to include in the original track. Whatever melodic pieces a songwriter includes in the original song, they're all involved in the copyright. Essentially, you're copyrighting a recording of sound. You can send a tape with 10 songs and copyright them all for the price of a single song, because you're copyrighting a recording. Hell, you can even fart into a microphone and copyright that recording.

Quote:
I've given the example of NAIS because i find it interesting. I don't think anybody recognizes NAIS as a folk ballad which is what was brought to the studio with of course PJ playing it in mind but as Jeff described it, it changed a lot from Jeff's original idea of the song.


It's a dirge anyway you sell it. Just because he wrote it on acoustic guitar, and it's slow, doesn't make it a folk ballad. Also, when a band copyrights their work they send the completed song in, meaning all included parts. If it was a folk ballad, and the rest was just arrangement, you would just send the demo in because that's what you consider the song.

Quote:
Also picking up any song from No Code and arguing it's 100% Jeff's musical creation is in contrast to anything Jeff(or anybody else in the band) ever said about the recording of that album.


No argument there.

Quote:
Jeff deffinitelly can write cool bass lines and riffs and I have nothing against him doing that in the future but anything else is better left to other people. He himself said he regrets some of his songs ended on albums.


Everybody in this band has offered up a sucky song or three. Maybe he regrets a particular track or tracks.


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