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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:37 am 
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Mine wrote:

I gave some thought about comparing songwriting and i think it ends up being a (musical) style preference argument at the end of the day even more than plain taste.

..because this didn't end up being "my taste in music is better than yours" right.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:38 am 
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spenno wrote:
Mine wrote:
pnjguy wrote:
they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.

:shake:


Mine and spenno - in agreeance at last!

:ohyeah!:

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:43 pm 
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Soma. wrote:
spenno wrote:
Guess we just have different tastes, I'd easily say Into The Wild is better than anything Radiohead or Thom Yorke have ever done.

Image


:haha:

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:48 pm 
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theplatypus wrote:
Sandler wrote:
they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


For the record, I did not write that, you misquoted.

In my opinion Eddie and Stone are better writers than Billy Corgan, but then again I was never a huge fan of the Pumpkins. I think Yorke has a ton of talent and half of his stuff is brilliant, while the other half suffers because he's trying too much to be different and 'artsy'. I love Chris Cornell. Yes, he's past his prime but his songwriting throughout the 90's was great.

Soma. wrote:
You can't expect PJ chat to have a clue, though.


We can't all be cool hipsters like those in OB. That forum has turned into a contest to see who can name the most bands nobody has ever heard of (or will ever care for).

What pnjguy was on the money with, was his statement about Pearl Jam being much better when they work together, as opposed to individually. No solo effort in my opinion, including Into The Wild, is as good as a PJ album.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:50 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
Sandler wrote:
they're not up to par with the likes of say Thom Yorke, Billy Corgan or Chris Cornell as far as songwriting ability.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


For the record, I did not write that, you misquoted.



Whoops. My bad, sorry.



Anyway, Spenno, Into the Wild is generic rubbish compared to anything Radiohead ever put out. Even Pablo Honey. Even the Eraser.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:55 pm 
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Sandler wrote:
What pnjguy was on the money with, was his statement about Pearl Jam being much better when they work together, as opposed to individually.

That's kind of hard to back up.
I mean PJ's collaborative efforts tend to be relatively generic. Eddie or Stone can write a song on their own that's at least on par with any songwriters from 90's, whether you like those songs or not. I'm talking about PJ songs now because ITW is a very specific collection of songs that works perfectly within the context they were created for so the songwriting per se can't be rationally questioned here. Just for the arranging compare the original Hard Sun to the various versions he did for ITW and that's not even a song he picked.


The band playing on a song doesn't equal a collaborative effort. Jeff for instance says s/t was the 1st album they didn't bring full songs in since vs. but than again he says a lot of pressure was put on Eddie to finish the songs in the vs. sessions, Eddie on the other hand says a number of songs on s/t were written in the sea or something like that and it's known Severed Hand and Gone were written before, WWS is credited 100% to Eddie so likely he brought that one in. Mike says Stone usually has all "mapped out" by the time they hit the studio and we all heard his pre-10 demo, a couple of Matt's demos are out too.

Their collaborative efforts tend to have some interesting ingredients but are kind of general so i wouldn't call that the best of their stuff as a rule. I don't think Eddie needs help in writing and arranging a song. He's work is really effective whether you like it or not. Some people argue that with chord progressions, solos or plain weirdness but that's entirely a matter of preference.

Also worth the mention is that PJ didn't really put out an album that was plain bad written or arranged as a whole. They didn't have one artistic prime they've always been at a certain level.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:46 pm 
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Mine wrote:
I don't think Eddie needs help in writing and arranging a song. He's work is really effective whether you like it or not. Some people argue that with chord progressions, solos or plain weirdness but that's entirely a matter of preference.
My only knock with Ed solo written songs is that Ed doesn't really write that well with a multiple guitar band in mind. There's very little if any interesting interplay between guitars. But he is a fantastic singer songwriter type of writer on his own. That's just not really what I want when listening to Pearl Jam.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:58 pm 
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Mine wrote:
Sandler wrote:
What pnjguy was on the money with, was his statement about Pearl Jam being much better when they work together, as opposed to individually.

That's kind of hard to back up.
I mean PJ's collaborative efforts tend to be relatively generic. Eddie or Stone can write a song on their own that's at least on par with any songwriters from 90's, whether you like those songs or not.


I'm sure they could, and they have, but they haven't put out as many, and that tells a lot about a good songwriter.


Mine wrote:
Also worth the mention is that PJ didn't really put out an album that was plain bad written or arranged as a whole. They didn't have one artistic prime they've always been at a certain level.


That's why i think Pearl Jam is a better band than Smashing Pumpkins, Soundgarden, and on par with Radiohead, but that doesn't mean that Stone, or Vedder are better individual songwriters than those other guys. The two issues don't have anything to do with one another.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:00 pm 
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tyler wrote:
Mine wrote:
I don't think Eddie needs help in writing and arranging a song. He's work is really effective whether you like it or not. Some people argue that with chord progressions, solos or plain weirdness but that's entirely a matter of preference.
My only knock with Ed solo written songs is that Ed doesn't really write that well with a multiple guitar band in mind. There's very little if any interesting interplay between guitars. But he is a fantastic singer songwriter type of writer on his own. That's just not really what I want when listening to Pearl Jam.

That's stylistic choice rather then inability. For example one of his trademarks are exactly the layered guitar lines creating that wall of sound. The real problem seems to be that the multiple guitars can't reproduce it as effectively live. He was the one who added the 3rd guitar in PJ and i think no one believes it was upon request :lol:
He just doesn't write that kind of songs or better none of them does unless they make it up on the spot in studio.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:05 pm 
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pnjguy wrote:
Mine wrote:
Sandler wrote:
What pnjguy was on the money with, was his statement about Pearl Jam being much better when they work together, as opposed to individually.

That's kind of hard to back up.
I mean PJ's collaborative efforts tend to be relatively generic. Eddie or Stone can write a song on their own that's at least on par with any songwriters from 90's, whether you like those songs or not.


I'm sure they could, and they have, but they haven't put out as many, and that tells a lot about a good songwriter.

That's just a matter of you personal taste.

pnjguy wrote:
Mine wrote:
Also worth the mention is that PJ didn't really put out an album that was plain bad written or arranged as a whole. They didn't have one artistic prime they've always been at a certain level.


That's why i think Pearl Jam is a better band than Smashing Pumpkins, Soundgarden, and on par with Radiohead, but that doesn't mean that Stone, or Vedder are better individual songwriters than those other guys. The two issues don't have anything to do with one another.

Yes it does. Songwriting is a skill that if you have the talent and are smart enough it's going to evolve and not just be a casualty.
Btw This is the 1st time I've seen Cornell called a great songwriter.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Mine wrote:
That's just a matter of you personal taste.


How many songs have been 100% attributable to either Stone or Eddie?

Mine wrote:
Yes it does. Songwriting is a skill that if you have the talent and are smart enough it's going to evolve and not just be a casualty.
Btw This is the 1st time I've seen Cornell called a great songwriter.


I don't agree with that at all. And i've never said Cornell was a great songwriter.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:27 pm 
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pnjguy wrote:
How many songs have been 100% attributable to either Stone or Eddie?

Eddie has quite a respectable list.

pnjguy wrote:
Mine wrote:
Yes it does. Songwriting is a skill that if you have the talent and are smart enough it's going to evolve and not just be a casualty.
Btw This is the 1st time I've seen Cornell called a great songwriter.


I don't agree with that at all. And i've never said Cornell was a great songwriter.

Someone did.

How can you say someone is a better songwriter than somebody else when the good part is actually an exception?

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:29 pm 
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So what does recognising Corgan, Cornell and Yorke's worth have to do with being a hipster?

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Mine wrote:
How can you say someone is a better songwriter than somebody else when the good part is actually an exception?


Like i said earlier, i don't think anybody in Pearl Jam are good, i think they're average but together they get more out of eachother regardless if they have songs finished before a recording session or not. Each member puts their stamp on the song whether its a finished song or not. And thats what Pearl Jam are good at. Elevating a song or a piece of music into something better or even different. Just like the NAIS story.

Like i said earlier in this thread, i was comparing Ed and Stone to their genre of music and their era. Cornell, Corgan, and Yorke are better IMO, that doesn't make them great, but they are good, and good is better than average.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:02 pm 
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pnjguy wrote:
Mine wrote:
How can you say someone is a better songwriter than somebody else when the good part is actually an exception?


Like i said earlier, i don't think anybody in Pearl Jam are good, i think they're average but together they get more out of eachother regardless if they have songs finished before a recording session or not. Each member puts their stamp on the song whether its a finished song or not. And thats what Pearl Jam are good at. Elevating a song or a piece of music into something better or even different. Just like the NAIS story.

Like i said earlier in this thread, i was comparing Ed and Stone to their genre of music and their era. Cornell, Corgan, and Yorke are better IMO, that doesn't make them great, but they are good, and good is better than average.

That's all just your taste and that's perfectly fine.

The 1st paragraph is not correct. As i said earlier playing your instrument isn't giving a stamp, deffinitelly not in a songwriting context. It has been known and bitched about that Eddie pretty much dictates how his stuff is supposed to be played and it's not all that hard to believe since no one in the band writes nothing even similar. Jeff as far as i understand likes other people giving input and that's fine. Stone in the words of Jeff and Mike isn't open to other people's ideas either btw.
Eddie in particular is the strongest in melody and lyrics department and to his credit is comfortable in different styles and it's all but average. It may not suite your taste but that doesn't have nothing to do with his songwriting skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:04 pm 
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I think it's wonderful all of these guys are able to do their own solo albums.


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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:07 pm 
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trainwreck wrote:
I think it's wonderful all of these guys are able to do their own solo albums.

It still is a free country formally

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:17 pm 
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Mine wrote:
pnjguy wrote:
Mine wrote:
How can you say someone is a better songwriter than somebody else when the good part is actually an exception?


Like i said earlier, i don't think anybody in Pearl Jam are good, i think they're average but together they get more out of eachother regardless if they have songs finished before a recording session or not. Each member puts their stamp on the song whether its a finished song or not. And thats what Pearl Jam are good at. Elevating a song or a piece of music into something better or even different. Just like the NAIS story.

Like i said earlier in this thread, i was comparing Ed and Stone to their genre of music and their era. Cornell, Corgan, and Yorke are better IMO, that doesn't make them great, but they are good, and good is better than average.

That's all just your taste and that's perfectly fine.

The 1st paragraph is not correct. As i said earlier playing your instrument isn't giving a stamp, deffinitelly not in a songwriting context. It has been known and bitched about that Eddie pretty much dictates how his stuff is supposed to be played and it's not all that hard to believe since no one in the band writes nothing even similar. Jeff as far as i understand likes other people giving input and that's fine. Stone in the words of Jeff and Mike isn't open to other people's ideas either btw.
Eddie in particular is the strongest in melody and lyrics department and to his credit is comfortable in different styles and it's all but average. It may not suite your taste but that doesn't have nothing to do with his songwriting skills.


So why are the majority of their songs credited to more than one member? I really would like to see a list of songs 100% attributed to Eddie.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:02 pm 
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pnjguy wrote:

So why are the majority of their songs credited to more than one member? I really would like to see a list of songs 100% attributed to Eddie.

You could check for yourself but let it be for this time:

Porch, RVM, Small Town, Whipping, Corduroy, Better Man, Immortality, I Got Shit, Long Road, Sometimes, Of He Goes, Habit, Lukin, Around The Band (No Code was nicknamed Eddie's solo album sarcastically because of the predominant input he had over it if we want to take that consideration), Wishlist, MFC, Breakerfall, Insignificance, Grievance, Soon Forget, Parting Ways, Man Of The Hour, Dead Man, Can't Keep, I Am Mine, Thumbing My Way, Green Disease, Arc, Sad, Hitchhiker, Education, Black, Red, Yellow, U, Undone, Drifitn, 4/20/02, World Wide Suicide, Severed Hand, Gone, Broken Hearted, Goodbye, Longing To Belong, Satellite, You're True, No More, Setting Forth, No Ceiling, Far Behind, Rise, Long Nights, Tuolomne, The Wolf, End Of The Road, Guaranteed.

PJ's credits don't always follow logic btw. The above are credited to Eddie or known to be his in a few cases.
Also Matt and Jeff referred to him as the leading songwriter in the band in interviews and promos.

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 Post subject: Re: Jeff Ament Solo Album?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:55 pm 
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Mine wrote:
pnjguy wrote:

So why are the majority of their songs credited to more than one member? I really would like to see a list of songs 100% attributed to Eddie.

You could check for yourself but let it be for this time:

Porch, RVM, Small Town, Whipping, Corduroy, Better Man, Immortality, I Got Shit, Long Road, Sometimes, Of He Goes, Habit, Lukin, Around The Band (No Code was nicknamed Eddie's solo album sarcastically because of the predominant input he had over it if we want to take that consideration), Wishlist, MFC, Breakerfall, Insignificance, Grievance, Soon Forget, Parting Ways, Man Of The Hour, Dead Man, Can't Keep, I Am Mine, Thumbing My Way, Green Disease, Arc, Sad, Hitchhiker, Education, Black, Red, Yellow, U, Undone, Drifitn, 4/20/02, World Wide Suicide, Severed Hand, Gone, Broken Hearted, Goodbye, Longing To Belong, Satellite, You're True, No More, Setting Forth, No Ceiling, Far Behind, Rise, Long Nights, Tuolomne, The Wolf, End Of The Road, Guaranteed.

PJ's credits don't always follow logic btw. The above are credited to Eddie or known to be his in a few cases.
Also Matt and Jeff referred to him as the leading songwriter in the band in interviews and promos.


Porch, Betterman, Sometimes, Off he Goes, Habit, Lukin, Around the Bend, Wishlist, MFC, Breakerfall, Insignificance, Grievance, Soon Forget, Parting Ways, Can't Keep, I am Mine, thumbing My Way, Green Disease, Arc, WWS, Severed Hand, Gone, are the only songs on their LP's that list Vedder as the only writer.

Whether you think he has more or not, i really can't go by that, all i can go by is what the band has documented.

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