Board index » Watched from the Window, with a Red Mosquito... » Pearl Jam




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1409 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log & stickers!)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:24 pm
Posts: 6501
Location: Massachusetts
Gender: Male
cutuphalfdead wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
No Code Vitalogy and Riot Act need no remastering whatsoever. They sound perfect as they are.


I see no scenario where a re-mastered Riot Act could be better than the original. It's far and away the best sounding PJ album.

I used to think that. And it does sound amazing. But No Code is the best sounding PJ album.


Nah Brah, Riot Act.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Master of Meh
 Profile

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:00 pm
Posts: 13226
Location: Adelaide, AUS
Are you guys talking about remixing or remastering? The Ten boxset had a remixed copy of the album and a remastered one, Vs and Vitalogy were only remastered.

Remastering won't change anything about the character of the album's sound overall, you can't make guitars or bass louder for example, only make the overall finished mix louder and play around with EQ to add more low end (or whatever else you might want to cut or boost).

Remixing is what they did with Ten, where you go back to the individual tracks - eg: Eddie's vocals, Mike's guitar, Stone's guitar - and can change their volume and position in the mix to make a whole new sounding finished product.

None of Pearl Jam's albums need remixing for my tastes, with the possible exception of S/T. With any boxset they put out, they'll be remastered - but that just means they'll (usually) be a little louder than the original CD, it won't change the character of the sound dramatically.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:39 am 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:02 pm
Posts: 1777
Location: Naperville, IL, USA Ten Club: 230xxx
Gender: Male
S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost. In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

_________________
Saw you at: 4/23/03, 6/13/03, 6/18/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/5/04, 5/16/06, 5/17/06, EV 8/22/08, 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 10/31/09, 5/7/10, EV 6/28/11, 9/3/11, 9/4/11!

Me on Google+
Campaign For Liberty
Ludwig Von Mises Institute
antiwar.com


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:49 am 
Offline
User avatar
Master of Meh
 Profile

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:00 pm
Posts: 13226
Location: Adelaide, AUS
twoheadedboy wrote:
S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better.

twoheadedboy wrote:
In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

I have no idea what you're talking about, they sound very (even dramatically) different.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:10 am 
Offline
User avatar
Force of Nature
 Profile

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:14 pm
Posts: 802
Location: Australia
Gender: Male
spenno wrote:
twoheadedboy wrote:
S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better.



Agreed.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log & stickers!)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 Profile

Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:13 pm
Posts: 1414
Location: Shelbyville
Gender: Male
mick7184 wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
No Code Vitalogy and Riot Act need no remastering whatsoever. They sound perfect as they are.


I see no scenario where a re-mastered Riot Act could be better than the original. It's far and away the best sounding PJ album.

I used to think that. And it does sound amazing. But No Code is the best sounding PJ album.


Nah Brah, Riot Act.


Nah, Vitalogy.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Red Mosquito, my libido
 Profile

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:02 am
Posts: 91597
Location: Sector 7-G
spenno wrote:
twoheadedboy wrote:
S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better.

twoheadedboy wrote:
In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

I have no idea what you're talking about, they sound very (even dramatically) different.

Yeah. twoheadedboy is being pretty retarded here.

_________________
It takes a big man to make a threat on the internet.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:02 pm
Posts: 1777
Location: Naperville, IL, USA Ten Club: 230xxx
Gender: Male
No, you have no idea what you're fucking talking about in one sense and are taking me way too literally in another.

Compression, while typically used in mastering, is not reserved to mastering. It's not even limited to post-production...most studio recordings put compression in between microphone and recorder, for instance.

Take Death Magnetic. That is brickwalled all to hell, because (at least according to the mastering engineer, who was interviewed), the final MIX was ALREADY brickwalled. According to most engineers I've spoken with, you want your final mix PEAKING at -3dB at worst, probably more like -6dB, and lower (in the 24-bit realm) is fine, even -12dB. You can't unfuck a brickwalled recording, and if the mixdown is already slammed to -0dB...there's almost nothing a mastering engineer can do, positively or negatively.

Mastering engineers do WAY more than just run some multiband compression filters - it's as much of an art as recording or mixing. They are the ones that adjust EQ/etc. to make an album that might have been recorded at multiple studios sound similar front to back. They're the ones that take a dull mix and give it that top 40 sparkle (EQ, stereo separation, reverb, etc.) In fact, ideally the mix tape is not EQ'ed or adjusted very much, with plenty of headroom left over, so that the mastering engineer can do his thing.

Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED. The fact that it was sent to the duplication factory, by definition, means it was mastered in some rudimentary way at the very least. I'm saying that, compared to Backspacer, or really any other major label rock record, there seems to have been little to no mastering (outside of limiting aka compression) done to the recording. Listen to Worldwide Suicide back to back with Force of Nature; WWS sounds dull and flat, and Force of Nature sounds sparkly and separated and punchy. Both albums are too "loud" of course, but I hope they remaster Avocado to be more like Backspacer if they make it that far on the rereleases.

I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

_________________
Saw you at: 4/23/03, 6/13/03, 6/18/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/5/04, 5/16/06, 5/17/06, EV 8/22/08, 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 10/31/09, 5/7/10, EV 6/28/11, 9/3/11, 9/4/11!

Me on Google+
Campaign For Liberty
Ludwig Von Mises Institute
antiwar.com


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar
a joke
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am
Posts: 22978
Gender: Male
twoheadedboy wrote:
I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

:wave:


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Force of Nature
 Profile

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:14 pm
Posts: 802
Location: Australia
Gender: Male
Skitch Patterson wrote:
twoheadedboy wrote:
I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

:wave:


:wave:


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Master of Meh
 Profile

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:00 pm
Posts: 13226
Location: Adelaide, AUS
twoheadedboy wrote:
I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers

You're right.

twoheadedboy wrote:
Compression, while typically used in mastering, is not reserved to mastering. It's not even limited to post-production...most studio recordings put compression in between microphone and recorder, for instance.

O RLY?

Seriously, you don't need to explain this stuff to me - nor quite a few other members here.

twoheadedboy wrote:
S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Quote:
Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED.

Okay, so when you said it was "almost totally unmastered", we're the idiots for assuming you meant what you actually said.

I get your point - but the things you identify aren't hallmarks of being quasi-unmastered, semi-unmastered or whatever term you prefer. It's just bad mastering, something that's been remarked on many times in regards to that record.

twoheadedboy wrote:
In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

I see you didn't attempt to back this statement up in your second post (and it's the one most of us seemed to be reacting to). The production of the two records prior to the mastering stage sounds, from what's able to be discerned, very different. I really don't get what your hear in them that you think sounds similar, it's much more than mastering that separates the two.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:00 am
Posts: 16093
Location: dublin
Gender: Male
Ah the internet:)

_________________
At the end of the day, it's night.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:02 pm
Posts: 1777
Location: Naperville, IL, USA Ten Club: 230xxx
Gender: Male
How can I prove to you that something sounds the same? To me, the overall production on Avocado and Backspacer sounds very similar. You can easily tell the difference between Ten>Vs.>Vitalogy>No Code, all very different sounding records (and not just because of the drummers). Yield is similar to No Code but still different (also not just because of the drummer). Binaural is way different than anything else, Riot Act maybe retains some Binaural elements, it's kind of a midpoint between Binaural and Avocado production-wise (in hindsight). Songwriting-wise, Avocado and Backspacer are very different - especially when it comes to solos - but the overall guitar sound, drum sound, mix, etc., sounds very similar. The major differences I hear are in the additional layers of mastering gloss used that are absent from Avocado. I mean, explain these stark differences you're hearing between the two?!

_________________
Saw you at: 4/23/03, 6/13/03, 6/18/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/5/04, 5/16/06, 5/17/06, EV 8/22/08, 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 10/31/09, 5/7/10, EV 6/28/11, 9/3/11, 9/4/11!

Me on Google+
Campaign For Liberty
Ludwig Von Mises Institute
antiwar.com


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar
a joke
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am
Posts: 22978
Gender: Male
Would this qualify under the hip "white people problems" fad?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:02 am 
Offline
User avatar
Master of Meh
 Profile

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:00 pm
Posts: 13226
Location: Adelaide, AUS
Seriously, this is up for debate? S/T has a very dry, up-front sound. The guitars are mixed much louder and there isn't a great deal of extraneous layering going on, like the subtle keyboard and percussion overdubs found in various spots on Backspacer. Sonically, they're two appreciably different approaches.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:05 am 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:02 pm
Posts: 1777
Location: Naperville, IL, USA Ten Club: 230xxx
Gender: Male
twoheadedboy wrote:
S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Quote:
Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED.

Okay, so when you said it was "almost totally unmastered", we're the idiots for assuming you meant what you actually said.[/quote]

You quoted it right there. I did not say "it was almost totally unmastered". I said "it sounds almost totally unmastered". As in, I know it's mastered, it has to be, I own the CD which originates from a master, but it does not sound like a lot of the typical mastering effects were used on the final product - as opposed to Backspacer. I really don't think I was being THAT obtuse there....

Quote:
I get your point - but the things you identify aren't hallmarks of being quasi-unmastered, semi-unmastered or whatever term you prefer. It's just bad mastering, something that's been remarked on many times in regards to that record.


Unless you are a mastering engineer, or a record company representative, or a member of Pearl Jam, you have no basis whatsoever to say "it's bad mastering", just that you don't like it. Pearl Jam obviously listened to the record before it was released, and they probably had MORE control over this one than the others as they self-released it. They picked their mastering engineer, and if he didn't do what Pearl Jam wanted or get the result that they wanted, he would have been fired. The customer is to blame in this one, just like in the case of Death Magnetic, because if anything albums tend to be OVERmastered these days, and this one was quite plainly UNDERmastered - that was a directive from the band, guaranteed. It probably went something like this...

Mastering Engineer: So, what do you guys want?
EV: Punk rawk d00d. Punk records are not mastered. Take this final mixdown tape, make it iTunes/FM radio volume, and then be done.
ME: I don't know, I could make the guitars sound a lot clearer by...
EV: NO. DO NOTHING.
ME: Ok.....*adds 3dB via limiting, presses to glass, cashes check*

_________________
Saw you at: 4/23/03, 6/13/03, 6/18/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/5/04, 5/16/06, 5/17/06, EV 8/22/08, 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 10/31/09, 5/7/10, EV 6/28/11, 9/3/11, 9/4/11!

Me on Google+
Campaign For Liberty
Ludwig Von Mises Institute
antiwar.com


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:05 am 
Offline
User avatar
a joke
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am
Posts: 22978
Gender: Male
spenno wrote:
Seriously, this is up for debate? S/T has a very dry, up-front sound. The guitars are mixed much louder and there isn't a great deal of extraneous layering going on, like the subtle keyboard and percussion overdubs found in various spots on Backspacer. Sonically, they're two appreciably different approaches.

and two equally horrible albums.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:13 am 
Offline
Yeah Yeah Yeah
 Profile

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:37 am
Posts: 3819
twoheadedboy wrote:
Unless you are a mastering engineer, or a record company representative, or a member of Pearl Jam, you have no basis whatsoever to say "it's bad mastering", just that you don't like it.


Thanks for clarifying. I'd been wondering about this for some time.

_________________
Buy KD's book! Official site or Amazon
Visit KD's blog! http://kevinpauldavis.blogspot.com
Join KD today and make a difference in women's lives! http://www.kappadelta.org/


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:13 am 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:02 pm
Posts: 1777
Location: Naperville, IL, USA Ten Club: 230xxx
Gender: Male
spenno wrote:
Seriously, this is up for debate? S/T has a very dry, up-front sound. The guitars are mixed much louder and there isn't a great deal of extraneous layering going on, like the subtle keyboard and percussion overdubs found in various spots on Backspacer. Sonically, they're two appreciably different approaches.


It's dry because of the lack of mastering, not the pre-mix production...if you handed the same mastering engineer the final mixdown tapes from both albums, they would end up sounding 99% the same when speaking of guitar sound, drum sound, levels, ambience, etc. The bass is more sharply defined on Backspacer, the guitars are DEFINITELY not mixed lower - it's possible the bass was mixed higher, but most likely the mastering engineer just enhanced the fuck out of it. Keyboard and percussion overdubs are songwriting flourishes not production...I mean, who do you think produced Backspacer, Phil Spector? Steve Lillywhite?

I'm starting to think you just don't understand the stages of record production, especially a real studio major label record, because you seem to have no grasp on what happens before tape, what happens in the mixdown, and what happens in the master. Tracking>mixdown>compression>eq gets you a pretty good recording in most cases, but that's not enough to get (or describe) a major label release.

_________________
Saw you at: 4/23/03, 6/13/03, 6/18/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/5/04, 5/16/06, 5/17/06, EV 8/22/08, 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 10/31/09, 5/7/10, EV 6/28/11, 9/3/11, 9/4/11!

Me on Google+
Campaign For Liberty
Ludwig Von Mises Institute
antiwar.com


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:17 am 
Offline
User avatar
Master of Meh
 Profile

Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:00 pm
Posts: 13226
Location: Adelaide, AUS
twoheadedboy wrote:
I'm starting to think you just don't understand the stages of record production, especially a real studio major label record, because you seem to have no grasp on what happens before tape, what happens in the mixdown, and what happens in the master. Tracking>mixdown>compression>eq gets you a pretty good recording in most cases, but that's not enough to get (or describe) a major label release.

:lol:

Alrighty, Chris. I think you're wrong but there's clearly no sense in arguing it with you.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1409 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71  Next

Board index » Watched from the Window, with a Red Mosquito... » Pearl Jam


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
It is currently Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:40 pm