Red Mosquito :: View topic - The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)

mick7184 wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:

No Code Vitalogy and Riot Act need no remastering whatsoever. They sound perfect as they are.

I see no scenario where a re-mastered Riot Act could be better than the original. It's far and away the best sounding PJ album.

I used to think that. And it does sound amazing. But No Code is the best sounding PJ album.

S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

twoheadedboy wrote:

S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better.

cutuphalfdead wrote:

mick7184 wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:

No Code Vitalogy and Riot Act need no remastering whatsoever. They sound perfect as they are.

I see no scenario where a re-mastered Riot Act could be better than the original. It's far and away the best sounding PJ album.

I used to think that. And it does sound amazing. But No Code is the best sounding PJ album.

Nah Brah, Riot Act.

twoheadedboy wrote:

S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better.

twoheadedboy wrote:

In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

I have no idea what you're talking about, they sound very (even dramatically) different.

I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

twoheadedboy wrote:

I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers

Compression, while typically used in mastering, is not reserved to mastering. It's not even limited to post-production...most studio recordings put compression in between microphone and recorder, for instance.

S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED.

In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost.

Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED.

I get your point - but the things you identify aren't hallmarks of being quasi-unmastered, semi-unmastered or whatever term you prefer. It's just bad mastering, something that's been remarked on many times in regards to that record.

Seriously, this is up for debate? S/T has a very dry, up-front sound. The guitars are mixed much louder and there isn't a great deal of extraneous layering going on, like the subtle keyboard and percussion overdubs found in various spots on Backspacer. Sonically, they're two appreciably different approaches.

Unless you are a mastering engineer, or a record company representative, or a member of Pearl Jam, you have no basis whatsoever to say "it's bad mastering", just that you don't like it.

I'm starting to think you just don't understand the stages of record production, especially a real studio major label record, because you seem to have no grasp on what happens before tape, what happens in the mixdown, and what happens in the master. Tracking>mixdown>compression>eq gets you a pretty good recording in most cases, but that's not enough to get (or describe) a major label release.

Author:	mick7184 [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log & stickers!)
cutuphalfdead wrote: mick7184 wrote: dimejinky99 wrote: No Code Vitalogy and Riot Act need no remastering whatsoever. They sound perfect as they are. I see no scenario where a re-mastered Riot Act could be better than the original. It's far and away the best sounding PJ album. I used to think that. And it does sound amazing. But No Code is the best sounding PJ album. Nah Brah, Riot Act.

Author:	spenno [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
Are you guys talking about remixing or remastering? The Ten boxset had a remixed copy of the album and a remastered one, Vs and Vitalogy were only remastered. Remastering won't change anything about the character of the album's sound overall, you can't make guitars or bass louder for example, only make the overall finished mix louder and play around with EQ to add more low end (or whatever else you might want to cut or boost). Remixing is what they did with Ten, where you go back to the individual tracks - eg: Eddie's vocals, Mike's guitar, Stone's guitar - and can change their volume and position in the mix to make a whole new sounding finished product. None of Pearl Jam's albums need remixing for my tastes, with the possible exception of S/T. With any boxset they put out, they'll be remastered - but that just means they'll (usually) be a little louder than the original CD, it won't change the character of the sound dramatically.

Author:	twoheadedboy [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost. In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly.

Author:	spenno [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
twoheadedboy wrote: S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost. Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better. twoheadedboy wrote: In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly. I have no idea what you're talking about, they sound very (even dramatically) different.

Author:	dumbcharger [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
spenno wrote: twoheadedboy wrote: S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost. Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better. Agreed.

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Author:	ejny [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log & stickers!)
mick7184 wrote: cutuphalfdead wrote: mick7184 wrote: dimejinky99 wrote: No Code Vitalogy and Riot Act need no remastering whatsoever. They sound perfect as they are. I see no scenario where a re-mastered Riot Act could be better than the original. It's far and away the best sounding PJ album. I used to think that. And it does sound amazing. But No Code is the best sounding PJ album. Nah Brah, Riot Act. Nah, Vitalogy.

Author:	cutuphalfdead [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
spenno wrote: twoheadedboy wrote: S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost. Unmastered? It's been slammed loud as fuck in mastering, any bet an unmastered copy would sound tons better. twoheadedboy wrote: In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly. I have no idea what you're talking about, they sound very (even dramatically) different. Yeah. twoheadedboy is being pretty retarded here.

Author:	twoheadedboy [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
No, you have no idea what you're fucking talking about in one sense and are taking me way too literally in another. Compression, while typically used in mastering, is not reserved to mastering. It's not even limited to post-production...most studio recordings put compression in between microphone and recorder, for instance. Take Death Magnetic. That is brickwalled all to hell, because (at least according to the mastering engineer, who was interviewed), the final MIX was ALREADY brickwalled. According to most engineers I've spoken with, you want your final mix PEAKING at -3dB at worst, probably more like -6dB, and lower (in the 24-bit realm) is fine, even -12dB. You can't unfuck a brickwalled recording, and if the mixdown is already slammed to -0dB...there's almost nothing a mastering engineer can do, positively or negatively. Mastering engineers do WAY more than just run some multiband compression filters - it's as much of an art as recording or mixing. They are the ones that adjust EQ/etc. to make an album that might have been recorded at multiple studios sound similar front to back. They're the ones that take a dull mix and give it that top 40 sparkle (EQ, stereo separation, reverb, etc.) In fact, ideally the mix tape is not EQ'ed or adjusted very much, with plenty of headroom left over, so that the mastering engineer can do his thing. Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED. The fact that it was sent to the duplication factory, by definition, means it was mastered in some rudimentary way at the very least. I'm saying that, compared to Backspacer, or really any other major label rock record, there seems to have been little to no mastering (outside of limiting aka compression) done to the recording. Listen to Worldwide Suicide back to back with Force of Nature; WWS sounds dull and flat, and Force of Nature sounds sparkly and separated and punchy. Both albums are too "loud" of course, but I hope they remaster Avocado to be more like Backspacer if they make it that far on the rereleases. I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

Author:	Skitch Patterson [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
twoheadedboy wrote: I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

Author:	dumbcharger [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
Skitch Patterson wrote: twoheadedboy wrote: I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers, right?

Author:	spenno [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
twoheadedboy wrote: I know I'm not the only here who has worked with an actual recording studio and mastering engineers You're right. twoheadedboy wrote: Compression, while typically used in mastering, is not reserved to mastering. It's not even limited to post-production...most studio recordings put compression in between microphone and recorder, for instance. O RLY? Seriously, you don't need to explain this stuff to me - nor quite a few other members here. twoheadedboy wrote: S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost. Quote: Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED. Okay, so when you said it was "almost totally unmastered", we're the idiots for assuming you meant what you actually said. I get your point - but the things you identify aren't hallmarks of being quasi-unmastered, semi-unmastered or whatever term you prefer. It's just bad mastering, something that's been remarked on many times in regards to that record. twoheadedboy wrote: In fact, play S/T and Backspacer alternating tracks to really get a sense of what mastering does to a recording, because they're otherwise produced VERY similarly. I see you didn't attempt to back this statement up in your second post (and it's the one most of us seemed to be reacting to). The production of the two records prior to the mastering stage sounds, from what's able to be discerned, very different. I really don't get what your hear in them that you think sounds similar, it's much more than mastering that separates the two.

Author:	dimejinky99 [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
Ah the internet:)

Author:	twoheadedboy [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
How can I prove to you that something sounds the same? To me, the overall production on Avocado and Backspacer sounds very similar. You can easily tell the difference between Ten>Vs.>Vitalogy>No Code, all very different sounding records (and not just because of the drummers). Yield is similar to No Code but still different (also not just because of the drummer). Binaural is way different than anything else, Riot Act maybe retains some Binaural elements, it's kind of a midpoint between Binaural and Avocado production-wise (in hindsight). Songwriting-wise, Avocado and Backspacer are very different - especially when it comes to solos - but the overall guitar sound, drum sound, mix, etc., sounds very similar. The major differences I hear are in the additional layers of mastering gloss used that are absent from Avocado. I mean, explain these stark differences you're hearing between the two?!

Author:	spenno [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
Seriously, this is up for debate? S/T has a very dry, up-front sound. The guitars are mixed much louder and there isn't a great deal of extraneous layering going on, like the subtle keyboard and percussion overdubs found in various spots on Backspacer. Sonically, they're two appreciably different approaches.

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Author:	twoheadedboy [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
twoheadedboy wrote: S/T's MIX is fine. However, it sounds almost totally unmastered, like a final mixing board tape almost. Quote: Certainly, Avocado is loud as fuck, and I'm not saying it is LITERALLY UNMASTERED. Okay, so when you said it was "almost totally unmastered", we're the idiots for assuming you meant what you actually said.[/quote] You quoted it right there. I did not say "it was almost totally unmastered". I said "it sounds almost totally unmastered". As in, I know it's mastered, it has to be, I own the CD which originates from a master, but it does not sound like a lot of the typical mastering effects were used on the final product - as opposed to Backspacer. I really don't think I was being THAT obtuse there.... Quote: I get your point - but the things you identify aren't hallmarks of being quasi-unmastered, semi-unmastered or whatever term you prefer. It's just bad mastering, something that's been remarked on many times in regards to that record. Unless you are a mastering engineer, or a record company representative, or a member of Pearl Jam, you have no basis whatsoever to say "it's bad mastering", just that you don't like it. Pearl Jam obviously listened to the record before it was released, and they probably had MORE control over this one than the others as they self-released it. They picked their mastering engineer, and if he didn't do what Pearl Jam wanted or get the result that they wanted, he would have been fired. The customer is to blame in this one, just like in the case of Death Magnetic, because if anything albums tend to be OVERmastered these days, and this one was quite plainly UNDERmastered - that was a directive from the band, guaranteed. It probably went something like this... Mastering Engineer: So, what do you guys want? EV: Punk rawk d00d. Punk records are not mastered. Take this final mixdown tape, make it iTunes/FM radio volume, and then be done. ME: I don't know, I could make the guitars sound a lot clearer by... EV: NO. DO NOTHING. ME: Ok.....adds 3dB via limiting, presses to glass, cashes check

Author:	Skitch Patterson [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
spenno wrote: Seriously, this is up for debate? S/T has a very dry, up-front sound. The guitars are mixed much louder and there isn't a great deal of extraneous layering going on, like the subtle keyboard and percussion overdubs found in various spots on Backspacer. Sonically, they're two appreciably different approaches. and two equally horrible albums.

Author:	Kevin Davis [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
twoheadedboy wrote: Unless you are a mastering engineer, or a record company representative, or a member of Pearl Jam, you have no basis whatsoever to say "it's bad mastering", just that you don't like it. Thanks for clarifying. I'd been wondering about this for some time.

Author:	twoheadedboy [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
spenno wrote: Seriously, this is up for debate? S/T has a very dry, up-front sound. The guitars are mixed much louder and there isn't a great deal of extraneous layering going on, like the subtle keyboard and percussion overdubs found in various spots on Backspacer. Sonically, they're two appreciably different approaches. It's dry because of the lack of mastering, not the pre-mix production...if you handed the same mastering engineer the final mixdown tapes from both albums, they would end up sounding 99% the same when speaking of guitar sound, drum sound, levels, ambience, etc. The bass is more sharply defined on Backspacer, the guitars are DEFINITELY not mixed lower - it's possible the bass was mixed higher, but most likely the mastering engineer just enhanced the fuck out of it. Keyboard and percussion overdubs are songwriting flourishes not production...I mean, who do you think produced Backspacer, Phil Spector? Steve Lillywhite? I'm starting to think you just don't understand the stages of record production, especially a real studio major label record, because you seem to have no grasp on what happens before tape, what happens in the mixdown, and what happens in the master. Tracking>mixdown>compression>eq gets you a pretty good recording in most cases, but that's not enough to get (or describe) a major label release.

Author:	spenno [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The New 10c Memberships(now with Anal Log)
twoheadedboy wrote: I'm starting to think you just don't understand the stages of record production, especially a real studio major label record, because you seem to have no grasp on what happens before tape, what happens in the mixdown, and what happens in the master. Tracking>mixdown>compression>eq gets you a pretty good recording in most cases, but that's not enough to get (or describe) a major label release. Alrighty, Chris. I think you're wrong but there's clearly no sense in arguing it with you.