Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
cutuphalfdead wrote:
stip wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
What's the difference between voting for Nader in the grand dream of trying to build a viable third party (or simply throw a monkeywrench in the duopoly) and voting for Nader as a protest/conscience vote?
I bought into that logic hard in 2000, and while there are still many areas both parties, or at least enough elements of both parties to form a constant majority, overlap, the argument that the two parties are basically the same is just spectacularly wrong, and often conflates the structural environment that influences the outcomes of politics with the choices and desires and ideology of the politicians themselves.
America also has a multi party system, in practice. It's just that the multi party process takes place during primaries. We don't have parliamentary parties. candidates are not bound to a platform. Party leadership has limited disciplinary capabilities. A democrat from NYC is VERY different than a democrat from Montana or West Virgina. But rather than have multiple parties and having to deal with coalition governments we run our multiple parties in the primary process. The tea party is a great example of this. If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
There are plenty of tangible differences between the democrats and the republicans, but there are none when it comes to their stranglehold on American democracy. To me, that's the most important thing.
okay, fair enough. I'm not sure third parties would really solve many problems, especially since they can (and have, historically) exert the same influence as insurgent wings within each party.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
Do you believe that Democrats could incorporate OWS without killing their electability on a national level?
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
4/5 wrote:
stip wrote:
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
Do you believe that Democrats could incorporate OWS without killing their electability on a national level?
Probably not, at least not by openly embracing it the same way the republicans did the tea party.. But I certainly think they are capable of putting class issues on the table (which were discussed in the mainstream media only while OWS was happening) and pushing the dems to the right. And I do think the Dems can be very successful running a class war campaign, provided they have a platform and program to back it up
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
And I do think the Dems can be very successful running a class war campaign, provided they have a platform and program to back it up
I think Democrats would be much more successful more fully embracing the social aspects of liberalism as opposed to a more radically liberal economic platform.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
4/5 wrote:
stip wrote:
And I do think the Dems can be very successful running a class war campaign, provided they have a platform and program to back it up
I think Democrats would be much more successful more fully embracing the social aspects of liberalism as opposed to a more radically liberal economic platform.
Certainly in the long term they would do well doing so, but the republicans are so horrible on those issues they don't need to move very far. And Americans are losing faith in the American Dream. Its hold on our national imagination is still there but people are now growing more and more convinced that the game is rigged against them. And they are basically right. The problem is that government is probably the only thing that can help them, but government as currently constituted is often a tool of elite interests and a way to siphon public resources into private hands that do not really need them. So right now the Dems are in a bind since they are the party of gov't and gov't doesn't serve the people. What republicans offer is basically worse for these same alienated americans, but their ideology strikes a chord with us, even if it no longer maps onto reality in any meaningful way. That means a huge swath of the electorate that republicans pulled away from the New Deal coalition can be won back, if the Dems want to move in that direction.
That's strictly from a political perspective. I think this sort of move is also a necessity for the long term health and well being of the country and its citizens, but that's a different story.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
if it does, and starts to gather any significant steam, it will quickly be co-opted by the establishment (like the tea party was).
That's how things work, though. Ideas start out on the fringe and if they're popular, the major parties pick up on them. Look at the progressive movement, or Goldwater-style conservatism. Also, I think people discount the value of the stability that having two parties brings.
_________________
Quote:
The content of the video in this situation is irrelevant to the issue.
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:37 pm Posts: 563 Location: CT Gender: Male
bart d. wrote:
dprival78 wrote:
stip wrote:
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
if it does, and starts to gather any significant steam, it will quickly be co-opted by the establishment (like the tea party was).
That's how things work, though. Ideas start out on the fringe and if they're popular, the major parties pick up on them. Look at the progressive movement, or Goldwater-style conservatism. Also, I think people discount the value of the stability that having two parties brings.
things are stable right now?
the two party system is a joke. both sides are completely bought and paid for, and neither are working for the common joe's interests.
_________________ ~*~ life comes from within your heart and desire ~*~
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am Posts: 22978 Gender: Male
dprival78 wrote:
bart d. wrote:
dprival78 wrote:
stip wrote:
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
if it does, and starts to gather any significant steam, it will quickly be co-opted by the establishment (like the tea party was).
That's how things work, though. Ideas start out on the fringe and if they're popular, the major parties pick up on them. Look at the progressive movement, or Goldwater-style conservatism. Also, I think people discount the value of the stability that having two parties brings.
things are stable right now?
the two party system is a joke. both sides are completely bought and paid for, and neither are working for the common joe's interests.
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:21 am Posts: 23078 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Gender: Male
theplatypus wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
Last year, one of my favorite musicians played the birthday party of a multimillionaire who happened to be a big fan who could afford to hire them for a private party.
Who was this?
I've got a feeling I'm gonna get a lot of grief
For the record, it was Elvis Costello. That's a line from an Elvis Costello song.
I'd be fine with Pearl Jam playing private parties, honestly.
_________________ For more insulated and ill-informed opinions, click here.
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:37 pm Posts: 563 Location: CT Gender: Male
Skitch Patterson wrote:
dprival78 wrote:
bart d. wrote:
dprival78 wrote:
stip wrote:
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
if it does, and starts to gather any significant steam, it will quickly be co-opted by the establishment (like the tea party was).
That's how things work, though. Ideas start out on the fringe and if they're popular, the major parties pick up on them. Look at the progressive movement, or Goldwater-style conservatism. Also, I think people discount the value of the stability that having two parties brings.
things are stable right now?
the two party system is a joke. both sides are completely bought and paid for, and neither are working for the common joe's interests.
Yeah, but we know what we're getting.
i guess. so it's not exactly rape, since we know it's coming, and we aren't really doing anything to stop it. it's more of an abusive relationship where our husband comes home drunk every night, throws us over the kitchen table and has his way with us. and then takes the money out of our wallet.
we just roll over and take it, just as long as he doesn't take our tv away.
_________________ ~*~ life comes from within your heart and desire ~*~
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
if it does, and starts to gather any significant steam, it will quickly be co-opted by the establishment (like the tea party was).
That's how things work, though. Ideas start out on the fringe and if they're popular, the major parties pick up on them. Look at the progressive movement, or Goldwater-style conservatism. Also, I think people discount the value of the stability that having two parties brings.
things are stable right now?
the two party system is a joke. both sides are completely bought and paid for, and neither are working for the common joe's interests.
Yeah, but we know what we're getting.
i guess. so it's not exactly rape, since we know it's coming, and we aren't really doing anything to stop it. it's more of an abusive relationship where our husband comes home drunk every night, throws us over the kitchen table and has his way with us. and then takes the money out of our wallet.
we just roll over and take it, just as long as he doesn't take our tv away.
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:37 pm Posts: 563 Location: CT Gender: Male
Harmless wrote:
dprival78 wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
dprival78 wrote:
bart d. wrote:
dprival78 wrote:
stip wrote:
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
if it does, and starts to gather any significant steam, it will quickly be co-opted by the establishment (like the tea party was).
That's how things work, though. Ideas start out on the fringe and if they're popular, the major parties pick up on them. Look at the progressive movement, or Goldwater-style conservatism. Also, I think people discount the value of the stability that having two parties brings.
things are stable right now?
the two party system is a joke. both sides are completely bought and paid for, and neither are working for the common joe's interests.
Yeah, but we know what we're getting.
i guess. so it's not exactly rape, since we know it's coming, and we aren't really doing anything to stop it. it's more of an abusive relationship where our husband comes home drunk every night, throws us over the kitchen table and has his way with us. and then takes the money out of our wallet.
we just roll over and take it, just as long as he doesn't take our tv away.
That's pretty much rape, dude.
well.... yea.
_________________ ~*~ life comes from within your heart and desire ~*~
If OWS coalesces into an electoral movement (I hope it does) we'll see the same influence on the democrats.
if it does, and starts to gather any significant steam, it will quickly be co-opted by the establishment (like the tea party was).
That's how things work, though. Ideas start out on the fringe and if they're popular, the major parties pick up on them. Look at the progressive movement, or Goldwater-style conservatism. Also, I think people discount the value of the stability that having two parties brings.
things are stable right now?
the two party system is a joke. both sides are completely bought and paid for, and neither are working for the common joe's interests.
Yeah, but we know what we're getting.
i guess. so it's not exactly rape, since we know it's coming, and we aren't really doing anything to stop it. it's more of an abusive relationship where our husband comes home drunk every night, throws us over the kitchen table and has his way with us. and then takes the money out of our wallet.
we just roll over and take it, just as long as he doesn't take our tv away.
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