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 Post subject: SOTM#94 Hey Foxymophandlemama, that's me (Please read first)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:51 am 
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PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING


Seriously, read this. I put a lot of effort into this. I know the majority of you hate this song, but I want you to read this and try to follow my thoughts on why I think this song is so important. I know it’s long, but hey, it’s a 7 minute song, a totally weird, crazy song. There’s a lot to be said about it.

Sept 26 2006:

stip wrote:
giventofly_88 wrote:
whens the SOTM coming out for this gem? :arrow:


2010


http://www.theskyiscrape.com/phpBB2/pos ... &p=1406099


Stip, you dirty liar! :)


First of all, I’d like to start with a little criticism of some people who declare Vitalogy the greatest album ever, but then don’t accept and understand the importance of the so called filler tracks. These tracks play a key role in why this album is Pearl Jam’s best. And without saying it’s my favourite, I admit it’s their best. You can quote me on that. But Vitalogy is Vitalogy, Vitalogy is not the 10 ‘real’ song on it. And Stupid Mop is without a doubt the most important track of the 4 non-songs. Maybe the most important on all of Vitalogy.

Secondly, I’d like to continue with some more criticism of people who love Pearl Jam because they are so diverse and like to go experimental, but think of Stupid Mop as filler or as something ‘stupid’. I mean, this IS their most and (dare I say) only partly experimental album. Or should I say ‘his’ album, because it’s pretty clear Eddie decided what was going to be on Vitalogy, probably with support of Jack.

Anyway, Stupid Mop…

What is Stupid Mop?

It’s actually called “Hey Foxymophandlemama, that's me (alternatively called Stupid Mop on other copies of the album). It’s a song of 7.44 min that was added pretty late onto Vitalogy. This is important to fully understand the song, the laws within the band at that time and the total album concept. It was created by Eddie & Jack, long after the other songs were finished. No other band members were there. The other songs were finished before May 1994. Stupid Mop was recorded after Dave A was fired (August 1994 or later).

On Stupid Mop we hear a lot of distorted feedback, drums and most importantly there’s a re-mix (with use of loops) of a recording of a crazy person (old lady) in a mental hospital with her doctor. The lady did a lot of crazy stuff, perverse stuff before going into hospital. Eddie recorded this off TV when he was about 17 and kept it till now. We probably don’t hear the entire conversation but only what Eddie wants us to hear and only what is applying and/or appealing to Eddie at that time. Also important is that Eddie recorded this when these mental ill people were no longer given the treatment they needed in the hospitals because the US cut back the finances. Eddie thought it was intriguing to see how their minds worked and what would be the result if these people came back into the real society, the real world.

Why is Stupid Mop important?

“The most emotional and moving song”, dixit Eddie Vedder. It says enough. If that’s not enough to spark your interest and make you want to find out as much as possible about it, then you shouldn’t call yourself a Pearl Jam fan.

In what time frame should we see Stupid Mop?

April 17th 1994 in NYC marks Pearl Jam’s last show of the tour that made for some of their best ever shows (Atlanta, St Pete), but also some of the most emotional after Kurt was found dead (Fairfax, Boston, NYC). Eddie notes that he would prefer to go and live in a cave with Beth after that. After that he apparently goes to live in a cave for months cause next time we see him again is at the Bridge shows end of 94 where he appears to be in a total different and more optimistic mood. In an interview “All Revved Up” from October 94, he also sounds kinda optimistic. Thanks to time healing? Thanks to Beth? Thanks to Jack? Thanks to Neil? Thanks to Pete?

Doesn’t matter. What matters is the time between this. May - October 1994.

May: All songs for Vitalogy were recorded. And according to more recent interviews the atmosphere within the group wasn’t exactly positive. And as a result of the Ticketmaster battle, Pearl Jam is unable to find suitable venues and cancels their summer tour. I can very much imagine Eddie (always been a kinda down person) feeling totally lonely and alone in this world. He had basically seen his entire life ruined by the band’s success. Kurt was death, I doubt Jeff, Mike & Stone were his best friends. And there he was. Like being all alone in the middle of 5 hurricanes coming your way.

June: He marries Beth on June 3rd in Rome. They were already a couple for an incredible 10 years and half a month before this marriage. He said before in interviews that their relationship certainly wasn’t an easy one. She had to deal with a lot because of his personality and because of Pearl Jam’s success and Eddie not being able to deal with it. Eddie also stated that he thought Kurt & Courtney’s relationship was a much more stable one than his. So I think after Kurt’s death and Eddie stating he wanted to live in a cave with her, he wanted to enjoy his relationship way more. The fact that he married her in a rather low-profile manner in Rome speaks volumes. I think this marriage was the first step in the process of Eddie taking his life back into his hands.

August: He fired Dave A. in August and with this probably further alienated himself from Mike, Jeff & Stone. But he did it for himself and because he wanted the band to live on. He knew he couldn’t and didn’t want to live the life Dave wanted to live. Jack Irons quote: “In August of 1994, I heard that Pearl Jam was going to be looking for another drummer. This time I wanted to try.” This is definitely the second and most important step in that process.

From here on, I think Eddie and Jack talked a lot about what happened. How Eddie dealt with it. How Eddie should deal with it. What should happen to the band. And it was during one of those conversations I think that the idea started to put something on Vitalogy about how Eddie was thinking, something personal. When you get over something, you tend to look back. People always do that. Did he consider “Out of my mind”, which ended up on the Not For You single later? Maybe. But I bet he then listened to the Beatles’ white album and when he heard “Revolution 9”, he started thinking, about using something like that, maybe he even thought right away about that conversation he recorded 13 (!) years earlier. I personally don’t think it’s a coincidence that he thought about that. I bet some of you know that phase as well. I know I’ve done it before. When going through a hard time, people often think and look back at the past. Go up the attic and look through all the things you saved up over the years. Old records, love letters, souvenirs, … and I think it’s in one of those circumstances that Eddie found this conversation back somewhere in April/May 1994.

All good and well, but what’s Stupid Mop doing on Vitalogy?

We all know that Eddie listens to tons of different music, some rather experimental, unexpected music as well. And even if he doesn’t, just listening to Revolution 9 could have been enough for this one. It takes a lot of guts to end your record this way and not with Immortality, the “some die just to live” line which so many of you would have loved to see close the album. But hey, if you already have the guts to include Bugs, Aye Davanita and Pry, to, you might as well add this one as well. Should it have been a hidden track? Maybe. But what’s the point of putting this on the record as a hidden track if you let the other 3 non-songs on the record? I think it’s fine where it is. It captures the entire mood of Eddie’s head at the time when most of these songs were written. And therefore, I think it’s brilliant.

People have often said listening to the song at night scares them. Or drives them slightly crazy. Without realizing it, they are giving the song a big compliment with that. The song varies in tempo, a bass line comes in and out, the feedback goes up and down, even the voice of the patient changes all the time. It perfectly captures the head of a wild and hunted Eddie, not knowing what will happen tomorrow, losing all contact with reality, losing it completely. His complete world was turned upside down. You get this mega rock star status out of nothing, you lose a friend in Kurt who went through about the exact same things as you. I can imagine there is no worse feeling than the feeling when someone dies and you think “maybe it could and should have been me”. You also want to stay true to your ideals, but with doing so, you have to cancel your summer touring plans and have to disappoint fans and can’t even go out and play your music, the only thing that keeps you going. The music fits this perfectly. It’s that of not knowing what’s happening. It’s chaos. More than Revolution 9, it actually makes me think of Heroin by the Velvet Underground & Nico. A haunting guitar sound, lots of feedback, tempo goes up and down, … It almost makes you feel the drugs inside you. Eddie did this perfectly with Stupid Mop. And the feeling of going crazy is so incredibly much more difficult to translate into music than anger, sadness or love.

Is there anything in those way too long lyrics?

As to the lyrics, like I said it’s a conversation between a crazy, old lady and her doctor. The narrator in the 3rd person is a journalist. So obviously you can’t over-analyze them cause Eddie did not write them. But… I can’t imagine Eddie would have put them on the record if he didn’t at least relate to it. Also, we’ve seen before (or later) that Eddie often talks through other people in his songs, even if it’s female characters. Here as well, we have a female character.

Don't you want people to love you?
My spanking, that's the only thing I want so much...
“Why is that better than being hugged?
Because you get closer to the person...
And this is the way it makes me feel...
I want it, I dream about it, I think about it, I want it...
Just like a girl wants sex with a boy, you know?
It's the way I'll always be probably...”


I think you can swap “spanking” for “music” and you have Eddie right in April 1994. Maybe he didn’t mean it this way. But there was only one thing he wanted then. Even before Cobain died, he said multiple times (was it Atlanta 1 or St Pete?) that he just wanted to play his music in small clubs. He didn't want to have the whole world loving him. And he said in multiple interviews that he tried to keep the success down, just tried to play his music, that it’s the only thing he wants. He doesn’t want to be ‘hugged’ by the entire world. Hugged to death even.

“See, they're stupid, very stupid, those people over there...
They're stupid...
These people are so below mentality, honest to G-d, really...
And I, I don't know if that's my imagination, but, umm...”


This is an outsider talking. Eddie could see it as receiving criticism for doing things he thinks are right. Receiving criticism by people who don’t even know the first thing about it. But people want to have an opinion, people want to judge. And suddenly you’re the one being judged and it must be pretty hard living with that and I think it can easily drive you crazy. Eddie was often criticised for not accepting his rock star status. People only saw his big money and success and thought it was ungrateful and arrogant for him to be so negative.

Then comes the whole “Dumb old sponge mop” phase, which I see as people seeing Eddie as an icon, actually more as an object. I think when we were young, we all had our idols and sometimes we forget that they are actually human beings as well. When they do something right, they’re gods and we fight to have a piece of hair of them. But on the other side, when in your opinion they do something wrong, oh my god, they’re so stupid, they’re retarded and they’d better shoot themselves.

“Do I tell the whole world that I'm mentally ill?
Go to the papers...yeah, why not?
Drum roll...
I want to show them that I can walk on my own without hands of
theirs...”


This speaks for itself, right? It’s important to know that his lady was a normal child, but got sexually and violently abused, which made her this mentally ill person. Draw the comparison to Eddie, who got totally crazy under the whole rock star pressure. Should he give dozens of interviews telling the papers how he can’t handle it? I think the “yeah why not?” here is meant sarcastically. It reminds me of “I’m not your fucking messiah!” It’s interesting to read that interview. But seriously, who didn’t think after reading that “my god, Eddie is fucked up” ? The last line here is essential. It’s way more essential than “Some die just to live” to illustrate the process from the early Vitalogy recordings up until the album release. During that NYC show he said about Jeremy “living is the best revenge”. This line further illustrates this. He wanted to be able to handle it. He wanted to tour without Ticketmaster. He wanted to live on. He wanted to continue to make music. He didn’t need people telling him to make a nice video for Betterman. He didn’t need to do massive interviews to promote Vitalogy. He didn’t need to be this spokesman for a generation. And he didn’t need record company people telling him to throw Aye Davanita, Stupid Mop and the others away. He wanted to do it his way. If it would have been total failure, then so be it. At least he would have done it like he thought was right. Vitalogy is more than any other album an Eddie Vedder album. And Stupid Mop illustrates better than any song on the album how Eddie was feeling.

Do you ever think that you would actually, really kill yourself?
Well, if I have thought about it real, uhh, real deep...
Yes, I believe I would...


Let there be no doubt it this, this wouldn’t be on Vitalogy, if this was meant as some sort of sick joke. Eddie included this multiple times in the song. That means it’s important. I do think that in a sick combination of circumstances (let’s say, Cobain dying, Beth and Eddie breaking up, the rest of the band being all pissed about him firing Dave, the band breaking up and Eddie not meeting Jack) Eddie could have done it. I mean, at the end of 1994 I think Eddie realizes how deep he was and he knows he probably was only needing a few extra sparks to drive him into doing stupid things.

And that’s it for Stupid Mop. On the next album, he tried again to be this personal, but way less experimental. Probably because when he wrote the song, he was way less fucked up. Off he goes is magnificent. Hey Foxymophandlemama is world class. 5 stars, easily.

I appreciate you very much if you have read this, even if you still hate Stupid Mop.

Wow.




Also, stip, start me a thread right now if you don’t want it to happen in this thread, but I’d like to see some discussion going on starting from some of the points I’ve been bringing up here. I’d love to talk more about 1994, and especially what happened between April (NYC show) and October (Bridge). I did a whole lot of reading and research for this write-up and 1994 is such an incredibly fascinating year. I came across this line somewhere: “It's funny – before Vitalogy, Pearl Jam were often called rock's youngest heirs. Afterwards, these guys were practically veterans.” There’s so much in that line about 1994.

Previous Songs of the Moment
1. In My Tree
2. Red Mosquito
3. Porch
4. I Got Id
5. Release
6. Do The Evolution
7. Breath
8. Corduroy
9. Elderly Woman...
10. Leash
11. Hail Hail
12. Grievance
13. Love Boat Captain
14. Even Flow
15. Black Red Yellow
16. In Hiding
17. Can't Keep
18. Indifference
19. Insignificance
20. Whipping
21. Black
22. Smile
23. Push Me Pull Me
24. Rats
25. God's Dice
26. All or None
27. Yellow Ledbetter
28. Last Exit
29. Who You Are
30. Rearview Mirror
31. Hold On
32. Present Tense
33. Light Years
34. Alive
35. Brain of J
36. Thumbing My Way
37. Hard to Imagine
38. Tremor Christ
39. Rival
40. Animal
41. Lukin
42. You Are
43. betterman
44. Given to Fly
45. Once
46. Low Light
47. Parting Ways
48. Off He Goes
49. Go
50. get right
51. World Wide Suicide
52. Angel
53. MFC
54. Long Road
55. Why Go
56. Nothingman
57. Save You
58. Of A Girl
59. Habit
60. Satan’s Bed
61. Faithful
62. Oceans
63. Gone
64. WMA
65. State of Love and Trust
66. Spin The Black Circle
67. Life Wasted
68. Arc
69. Garden
70. All Those Yesterdays
71.Sleight of Hand
72. Other Side
73. Let Me Sleep
74. I’m Open
75. Blood
76.Nothing As It Seems
77. All Night
78. Jeremy
79. No Way
80. Around The Bend
81. Immortality
82. Comatose
83. Daughter
84. Alone
85. I am Mine
86. Down
87. Cropduster
88. Strangest Tribe
89. Inside Job
90. Drifting
91. Wishlist
92. Big Wave
93. Sad


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:55 am 
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Where did you find the lady was old? I always had someone young(er) in mind...

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:56 am 
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Wow Angus, I couldn't possibly add anything to this, but I'll definitely be checking back to see where this thread goes. Good work.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:02 pm 
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Mirella wrote:
Where did you find the lady was old? I always had someone young(er) in mind...

groetjes,
Mirella :)


The song is a 're-mix' of a tape that one of the band found in an archive somewhere. The numerous high pitched voices you can hear aren't children, In fact - they all belong an old lady.

The tape records a psychologist (The middle aged female voice) interviewing the 'mop handle mama' whilst the whole thing is narrated by a journalist (The male voice).


This could be wrong though, since the first line is definitely wrong. They didn't find it in an archive. It's Eddie who recorded it off TV. But I remember it reading somewhere else as well, I just don't remember where. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:13 pm 
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Mirella wrote:
Where did you find the lady was old? I always had someone young(er) in mind...

groetjes,
Mirella :)


Yeah I thought so too. Anyway... great thread Angus, you know I already love this song. I didn't analyze it as much as you did, but I think the reason I love it is that I relate to the fucked-up state of mind you have to be to come up with this. This is a fucking piece of art and you just don't get more moving than that. It's scary, weird, fucked-up, moving, and brillant.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:37 pm 
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I'll also add that even if you don't want to analyze things and you don't care about how Ed was feeling at that time, and you only focus on the musical side of this song, it's still amazing. Totally hypnotic music. The comparison with Heroin is pretty much spot on too. This is the kind of music that goes beyong entertainment and truly is art, with the artist putting his guts in his work. This is not something you can fake. It's a life or death thing. Like art should always be.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:16 pm 
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Great write-up!

I've always liked this song. I always thought that there were several different children talking. I never knew that those voices were coming from an old lady.

The bass/drums in this song are great.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:34 pm 
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excellent write-up Angus! i share most of your thoughts and impressions over this piece of work and i think it's sad that most people hate Stupid Mop. i often have the feeling that most haters would hate most experimental track by any artist, period. this song achieves its goal 100% - i don't think Eddie thought this was going to please most of the fans, in that respect, it's not only a bold move but you gotta acknowledge the guts it took to commit it to tape and include this as a coda to the band's most tortured album. i think of this as a naked and impressionist expression of Ed's psyche at the time, a weight he had to pull out, release it for all to hear in all it's frank crudeness.

four stars musically but five stars only for the artistic gesture.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:59 pm 
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that was a tour de force angus--I'd put this on the short list of best SOTM's, if not at the top. Plus it made me listen to stupid mop for the first time in a long time


Angus wrote:
Sept 26 2006:

stip wrote:
giventofly_88 wrote:
whens the SOTM coming out for this gem? :arrow:


2010


http://www.theskyiscrape.com/phpBB2/pos ... &p=1406099


Stip, you dirty liar! :)


hell freezes over


Angus wrote:

First of all, I’d like to start with a little criticism of some people who declare Vitalogy the greatest album ever, but then don’t accept and understand the importance of the so called filler tracks. These tracks play a key role in why this album is Pearl Jam’s best. And without saying it’s my favourite, I admit it’s their best. You can quote me on that. But Vitalogy is Vitalogy, Vitalogy is not the 10 ‘real’ song on it. And Stupid Mop is without a doubt the most important track of the 4 non-songs. Maybe the most important on all of Vitalogy.



I would disagree (possibly, this was a very convincing SOTM) that Bugs is more important, but I'll grant you this one over pry, to, and certainly aye davanita, which serves basically no purpose (of course, that was part of their purpose, but they made that point with bugs and stupid mop)



Angus wrote:
Secondly, I’d like to continue with some more criticism of people who love Pearl Jam because they are so diverse and like to go experimental, but think of Stupid Mop as filler or as something ‘stupid’. I mean, this IS their most and (dare I say) only partly experimental album. Or should I say ‘his’ album, because it’s pretty clear Eddie decided what was going to be on Vitalogy, probably with support of Jack.



It would be interesting to see what the 'experimental' fans made of stupid mop. I'm not a fan of experimental pearl jam (or rather, not as much as 'regular' peral jam so I don't count here


Angus wrote:

Should it have been a hidden track? Maybe. But what’s the point of putting this on the record as a hidden track if you let the other 3 non-songs on the record? I think it’s fine where it is. It captures the entire mood of Eddie’s head at the time when most of these songs were written. And therefore, I think it’s brilliant.



Oddly enough I never thought about understanding stupid mop in the context of Ed's mental space at the time, but that is a brilliant observation.


Angus wrote:
People have often said listening to the song at night scares them. Or drives them slightly crazy. Without realizing it, they are giving the song a big compliment with that.




this is true--even listening to it at 9:30am on a bright thursday morning while I read your SOTM was enough to kinda freak me out a bit. It is a very disturbing song (intentionally so). In that respect the song succedes admirably


Angus wrote:
And the feeling of going crazy is so incredibly much more difficult to translate into music than anger, sadness or love.



I'm not totally sure I agree with that, but I will agree that the music does do a great job conveying that feeling


Angus wrote:

During that NYC show he said about Jeremy “living is the best revenge”.


I'm just picking this line to say this (there are a number I could have used), but great job really situating this song in a larger context.

Angus wrote:

Do you ever think that you would actually, really kill yourself?
Well, if I have thought about it real, uhh, real deep...
Yes, I believe I would...


Let there be no doubt it this, this wouldn’t be on Vitalogy, if this was meant as some sort of sick joke. Eddie included this multiple times in the song. That means it’s important. I do think that in a sick combination of circumstances (let’s say, Cobain dying, Beth and Eddie breaking up, the rest of the band being all pissed about him firing Dave, the band breaking up and Eddie not meeting Jack) Eddie could have done it. I mean, at the end of 1994 I think Eddie realizes how deep he was and he knows he probably was only needing a few extra sparks to drive him into doing stupid things.



The line that makes the 'would you ever kill yourself' exchange even more powerful is the "I think I deserve to be loved" line right before it

I went into this SOTM as a stupid mop hater and I certainly have way more apprecation than I did before. I always thought it was an interesting (and effective) art experiment, but the connection I gave it to the rest of vitalogy was just part of the 'we're the biggest band in the world and we're putting this on a record' statement. A 'we refuse to be caged' kind of moment. Thinking of this in terms of Eddie's own frame of mind makes this a MUCH more powerful piece of music

However, i still don't think this should be a formal track. As disturbing as it is, the album still needs to end with Vitalogy--and the 'some die just to live' lyric is more haunting than the "would you ever kill yourself" exchange since it is coming from Eddie's mouth. But I do now think this needs to be on Vitalogy (so nice job angus), but as a hidden track--either after an extended space or just as an unlabeled seperate track. I think I like it coming after a pause on the same track for two reasons

1-it is more distrubing that way

2-if stupid mop is supposed to represent Eddie's subconscious, then it should be hidden. If these are feelings eddie can only express obliquely then it makes more sense that it not be a formal part of the official record, but instead be something that needs to be discovered and worked through

Honestly I have no idea how to vote on this one now. As a stand alone piece of music I'd certainly rank it much higher than I did before. But I'm still not sure it makes sense to give this a conventioanl ranking on the 1-5 star system since it isn't really a song. I guess I'll just rank this according to the criteria you attatched to the stars

I went with three stars. I think it is an essential vitalogy track, but I also think it should have been a hidden one, so this seemed like a fair compromise

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:02 pm 
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Oh yaeh

Jack Irons wrote:
“In August of 1994, I heard that Pearl Jam was going to be looking for another drummer. This time I wanted to try.” .


What a bunch of horseshit. Yeah, when they were a nothing band it wasn't the right time, but now that they are the biggest band in the world it is the right time. :roll:

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Last edited by stip on Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Quote:
Why is Stupid Mop important?

“The most emotional and moving song”, dixit Eddie Vedder. It says enough. If that’s not enough to spark your interest and make you want to find out as much as possible about it, then you shouldn’t call yourself a Pearl Jam fan.

this is the only thing i've read in this thread. im gonna call bullshit on mr. vedder

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:21 pm 
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Great write-up. i 've always liked this song, but i really don't think it's scary.

but are you sure about this:
Quote:
It was created by Eddie & Jack, long after the other songs were finished. No other band members were there.


because acording to the recording guide site Jeff played the bass

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:39 pm 
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A great (and very brave) write up Angus. Thanks for clearing up a lot of context stuff about the song...my knowledge of the stuff at the time was always a bit blurry.

I've always thought of the song as an essential part of the album. The second half seems intentionally full of trouble...lack of focus and direction...and feeling little (if any) power over your actions. I agree with the idea of this song reflecting the mind set of Eddie...and i actually find that the closing line is as haunting as the Immortality one..

In regards to it's placement, here is what i think is the PERFECT solution for the last few tracks...it's daring, but i've listened to the whole album through many times like this, and it works wonderfully - and makes Immortality that little bit more emphatic and emotionally powerful:

...Satan's Bed,
Better Man,
Hey, Foxymophandlemama That's Me
Immortality

Aye Davanita is nice...but it doesn't hit me or move me much at all...so i'd qute happily sacrifice that and put Stupid mop in it's place and end with Immortality.

What's people's thoughts on that?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:45 pm 
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i've read half of your write up, but i just watned to get this out.

I firmly believe it wasnt just ed wanting to get rid of dave.

jeff has commented thousands of times that dave didnt leave him much room for playing (as a bass player) in the songs.

now, back to reading.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:52 pm 
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stip wrote:
Plus it made me listen to stupid mop for the first time in a long time

Me too. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:57 pm 
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62strat wrote:
i've read half of your write up, but i just watned to get this out.

I firmly believe it wasnt just ed wanting to get rid of dave.

jeff has commented thousands of times that dave didnt leave him much room for playing (as a bass player) in the songs.

now, back to reading.

good point strat.


Now the only thing i would agree on is the rest of the band probably didnt have the balls to make sucha big change at the height of their success. But i do not think for one second that eddie was the only one to do this. Tihs is fan myth and i dont even know where it came from. Eddie has never had a problem running his mouth off and if he was the only one, and the band was "pissed at hime for firing dave" then they would have made eddie do it himself, and im sure he would of had no problem.

Anyways.

this line:
Don't you want people to love you?
My spanking, that's the only thing I want so much...
“Why is that better than being hugged?
Because you get closer to the person...
And this is the way it makes me feel...
I want it, I dream about it, I think about it, I want it...
Just like a girl wants sex with a boy, you know?
It's the way I'll always be probably...”

Can also relate to the woman in betterman. People stay in abusive relationships cause its the only thing they know, it makes them feel loved cause at the very least, they are being paid attention to.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:04 pm 
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Angus, that has got to be one of the best write ups ever made on RM. wow.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:04 pm 
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62strat wrote:
62strat wrote:
i've read half of your write up, but i just watned to get this out.

I firmly believe it wasnt just ed wanting to get rid of dave.

jeff has commented thousands of times that dave didnt leave him much room for playing (as a bass player) in the songs.

now, back to reading.

good point strat.


Now the only thing i would agree on is the rest of the band probably didnt have the balls to make sucha big change at the height of their success. But i do not think for one second that eddie was the only one to do this. Tihs is fan myth and i dont even know where it came from. Eddie has never had a problem running his mouth off and if he was the only one, and the band was "pissed at hime for firing dave" then they would have made eddie do it himself, and im sure he would of had no problem.

Anyways.

this line:
Don't you want people to love you?
My spanking, that's the only thing I want so much...
“Why is that better than being hugged?
Because you get closer to the person...
And this is the way it makes me feel...
I want it, I dream about it, I think about it, I want it...
Just like a girl wants sex with a boy, you know?
It's the way I'll always be probably...”

Can also relate to the woman in betterman. People stay in abusive relationships cause its the only thing they know, it makes them feel loved cause at the very least, they are being paid attention to.


Even more reason why my above mentioned tracklisting would have been perfect :)

In regards to the Dave A thing, i also think it would have been a consensus...wassn't it Stone who actually fired him? (albeit after being instructed by Ed...but if Stone was against it, he would have declined...)

Also, check out the grammy speech from the mid 90's..on the video i think one of the members (I think it's Mike - definitely not Ed) makes a sarcastic reference to Dave A.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:16 pm 
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First off, that was great...incredibly detailed and well thought out. I've never thought of the song like that at all before. And you made me listen to it again. A lot more objectively than I ever have before. I think the very end, the last couple of lines (about could you really kill yourself) give away the driving force behind this track. And as such they reveal just how intense this struggle was that Ed felt he was caught in.

I'd never seen that quote from Ed about this being the "most emotional and moving song." If thats how he really feels, then maybe it was a matter of this being so personal and hard to deal with, that he didnt feel like he could properly find the words himself. I think he does with Immortality. But maybe for Ed, that just wasn't enough. Foxy Mop goes a step further and shows how vulnerable and on the brink of collapse Ed was, even more so than everything else on Vitalogy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:48 pm 
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PotatoJunkie wrote:
Great write-up. i 've always liked this song, but i really don't think it's scary.

but are you sure about this:
Quote:
It was created by Eddie & Jack, long after the other songs were finished. No other band members were there.


because acording to the recording guide site Jeff played the bass


Yea, i was thinking this as well.
Here's the page for reference: http://web.archive.org/web/200306251716 ... guide.html

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