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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:14 am 
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I do agree that needing to work stuff out is probably a great motivation to make music, btw. I'm just arguing that it isn't necessary to make good music.

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:17 am 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
I try not to play the "I'm a musician" card very often, mainly because I'm not a very active one anymore, but I do really relate to this particular issue.

When I was younger, I used to write and record music prolifically. Between the years of 2001 and 2006, I probably recorded 10-15 projects of various lengths with various people, and played live constantly. When I started dating my wife late in 2006, things slowed considerably--partially because, once it became serious, I just didn't have the same kind of time to sit with my guitar for hours on end and compose, but mostly because that compulsion to create just wasn't there anymore. When at my most active, getting those songs out at times felt like a matter of life and death; once what would eventually become my family life began to take shape, the compulsion to create became increasingly more a case of simply being a creative person who enjoyed working on creative things rather than a conduit for some kind of do-or-die self-expression. Eventually, I became what, in a loose sense, my art lamented that I wasn't.

I'd recommend the book "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel Levitin to anyone interested in the psychology of the art form. There's a great section in there about music as a sexual fitness characteristic which I really found myself relating to. Basically he argues that, on a subconscious level, the evolutionary purpose of music is to signal to prospective mates (a) intellectual fitness, which people lacking in physical prowess not uncommonly play up in their own identities, and (b) that you have enough resources (food, clothes, shelter) to waste time perfecting a purely unnecessary skill. Until I read this, I don't think I'd realized how much of my desire to succeed as a musician was rooted in my desire to pick up chicks. It seems like the kind of thing that people who fancy themselves "proper artists" should be above, but I wonder how much of it is always there on some level. At the very least, it does seem like some of those creative signals tend to get crossed when that function is no longer prevalent.

This is obviously just one person's experience, and plenty of examples exist to the contrary. Food for thought nonetheless.

Great post, lots of parallels with my experiences too.

I've been meaning to check out that book for some time, thanks for the reminder.


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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:18 am 
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Last edited by cutuphalfdead on Thu May 24, 2012 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:19 am 
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stip wrote:
I do agree that needing to work stuff out is probably a great motivation to make music, btw. I'm just arguing that it isn't necessary to make good music.

Is any one arguing otherwise? Great art from a happy place just isnt nearly as common and there are many logical reasons why this is the case. Happiness is fleeting anyway, its rare that even successful artists are happy for very long.

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:19 am 
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I think Kevin Davis brought up a good point there (someone's gonna call me out for agreeing with him again). But I also think stip, and maybe this is just a matter of perception, is boiling it down to much of a sad vs happy musician::good vs bad music.

I suspect that a huge driving force behind art isn't necessarily melodrama and being "down", but not having the things you really want out of life. If your art is tied to your life journey (that was painful to write), then wouldn't it make sense for it to settle down with you?

"And they lived happily ever after" is a beautiful thought, but it doesn't leave you with anything interesting anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:25 am 
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and my response again...

cutuphalfdead wrote:
I think Kevin Davis brought up a good point there (someone's gonna call me out for agreeing with him again). But I also think stip, and maybe this is just a matter of perception, is boiling it down to much of a sad vs happy musician::good vs bad music.

I suspect that a huge driving force behind art isn't necessarily mellowdrama and being "down", but not having the things you really want out of life. If your art is tied to your life journey (that was painful to write), then wouldn't it make sense for it to settle down with you?

"And they lived happily ever after" is a beautiful thought, but it doesn't leave you with anything interesting anymore.



I just said this in that other thread (I think this conversation is happening in multiple threads which makes it a bit confusing) but I do agree that feeling incomplete is probably a great spur to make art, but I don't think that living happily ever after cuts you off, either.

I think of a Dan Bern song called Boll Weevil, which is kind of about this.

'I'm walking down a road, my suitcase in my hand
I'm walking down a road, my suitcase in my hand
A man says 'where you going'
I say 'I ain't going no place'
I just needed the line for this song
And I only write from personal experience'

and later in the song

'Lonesome Lufthansa on a lonesome runway
Lonesome Lufthansa on a lonesome runway
Lonesome train on a lonesome track sounds more romantic
But my imagination is limited by more environment
And I've been to LAX more than I've been to Union Station'

A good artist should be able to tap into something beyond their personal experience. Perhaps the problem many run into is that they lack the empathy and imagination to see past themselves, so they end up being limited by their experiences, or lack thereof.

Again, I think of Tom Waits or REM, who produced the best work of their career, and for a long period of time, long after they left their troubled periods behind them. I assume this would also apply to artists like Neil Young, Sonic Youth, Radiohead.

Hell, I think it applies to Backspacer, with songs like Johnny Guitar, The End, and Speed of Sound.

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:26 am 
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bmacsmith wrote:
stip wrote:
I do agree that needing to work stuff out is probably a great motivation to make music, btw. I'm just arguing that it isn't necessary to make good music.

Is any one arguing otherwise?


I certainly thought so

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:28 am 
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I guess i'm responding to the 'they won't make a good album anymore since they're happy' argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:28 am 
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anyway, back to work!

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:03 am 
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stip wrote:
A good artist should be able to tap into something beyond their personal experience.
Why? Produce good art is all I ask. Wether from imagination or reality, I don't care.

stip wrote:
... but you also don't need to be in a horrible place to write about those things either. again that is what empathy and imagination are for. Charles Bukowski did all his best writing recalling a very dark place. Tom Waits wrote very similar stuff imagining a very dark place.
It is way easier to effectively imagine a dark place when you're happy than vice versa. U2 is the only band I know who can consistently put out 2 or 3 unabashed happy songs per album without being trite or too cliched.


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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:19 am 
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stip wrote:
I guess i'm responding to the 'they won't make a good album anymore since they're happy' argument.

Was anyone making that argument? Maybe tyler was, I'm not sure. I was talking about happiness as a songwriting topic (Amongst the Waves, etc.) and I agree that someone in a happy state of mind can still write great songs on darker themes - Into the Wild is a great example of that, I recall Ed mentioning how he drew upon lots of those 'angry young man' feelings that he hadn't really tapped since the early 90s.

The band's happiness is really none of my concern - I don't know them personally, so it's none of my business if they're content or if they're desperately miserable, my only interest is in what kind of songs they come up with.


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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:28 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:28 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:39 am 
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spenno wrote:
stip wrote:
I guess i'm responding to the 'they won't make a good album anymore since they're happy' argument.

Was anyone making that argument?



sort of on the last page, but then again I think I brought this up by misinterpreting someone else...

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:49 am 
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I definitely didn't mean to insinuate that I don't think general contentment can lead to great music, nor do I remotely think that it's not a viable songwriting topic. Some of what I think are the finest songs in our nation's history come from that postwar standards period where songwriters primarily wrote nonthreatening love songs and semi-novelty tunes often about nothing of consequence whatsoever. I just think a lot of artists reach a point where they find themselves in a different creative headspace as a result of life circumstances, the management of which requires a different set of skills than before.

If nothing else, we probably don't know a tenth as much about any given musician's "happiness" as we think we do.

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:52 pm 
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eddie vedder was highly attuned to the struggles of youth entering adulthood and therefore wrote great songs related to such matters. while his priorities have changed as a naturally maturing adult, so have ours. the earnestness of his greatest lyrics don't strike much of a chord with people in their thirties anymore, as most of us have naturally matured as well. he can write about other things well, stuff that's more identifiable to his age/our ages, but he's simply not as adept at it as the subject matter mentioned at the beginning of this post.


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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Spike wrote:
eddie vedder was highly attuned to the struggles of youth entering adulthood and therefore wrote great songs related to such matters. while his priorities have changed as a naturally maturing adult, so have ours. the earnestness of his greatest lyrics don't strike much of a chord with people in their thirties anymore, as most of us have naturally matured as well. he can write about other things well, stuff that's more identifiable to his age/our ages, but he's simply not as adept at it as the subject matter mentioned at the beginning of this post.

This reads like a dkfan post

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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:56 pm 
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theplatypus wrote:
Spike wrote:
eddie vedder was highly attuned to the struggles of youth entering adulthood and therefore wrote great songs related to such matters. while his priorities have changed as a naturally maturing adult, so have ours. the earnestness of his greatest lyrics don't strike much of a chord with people in their thirties anymore, as most of us have naturally matured as well. he can write about other things well, stuff that's more identifiable to his age/our ages, but he's simply not as adept at it as the subject matter mentioned at the beginning of this post.

This reads like a dkfan post

i should probably start a blog.


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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:56 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
stip wrote:
the idea that only struggling/depressed people can make decent art is another myth I wish people would put to rest.



It's not an absolute but the evidence suggests this is the case in a lot of areas, Stip.


Which evidence?
Dont want to come across as arrogant but actually empirical research suggests that there is not that much of a link between creativity and a "shitty life". It is much rather an idea that people like: "Well he is a genius, but at least he is really struggling".

The thing is that happiness can boost creativity. If you have some kind of safeness it is more likely that you will try to push boundaries, try new things etc....At least as long as you are still very involved in your art. It is possible that Pearl Jam is not that important to Pearl Jam anymore and that their songwriting suffers from this but them being happy doesnt account for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Pearl Jam Partners With UPS
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Spike wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
Spike wrote:
eddie vedder was highly attuned to the struggles of youth entering adulthood and therefore wrote great songs related to such matters. while his priorities have changed as a naturally maturing adult, so have ours. the earnestness of his greatest lyrics don't strike much of a chord with people in their thirties anymore, as most of us have naturally matured as well. he can write about other things well, stuff that's more identifiable to his age/our ages, but he's simply not as adept at it as the subject matter mentioned at the beginning of this post.

This reads like a dkfan post

i should probably start a blog.

I read the original version of this post

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