Doesn't the studio version of that 'echoes' bit have Jack smashing the cymbals Corduroy style?

Another good example would be the intro (or most of) Severed Hand. I can't think of a rock drummer who wouldn't be smashing as many cymbals as possible during that song, except for Matt. He only starts doing it on the outro, and even then it's still a bit pedestrian. Lots of closed hats in that song.

Also, You Are. As above.

OK, thanks, I'll give these three a listen.

Harmless likes his cym-balls.

I do, I do, I do... oo.

I think that is the point; why play the song how 10,000 complete tools would? At least it is less post-modern than Lars's snare drum "experiment".

You're calling them 'complete tools' just because they make a particular drumming decision? Wow, that's dismissing a lot of great drummers there.

And every Lars drum experiment fails, because he's a crap drummer.

Ok, so I hear it in Faithfull. Honestly, I like the Matt, limited cymbals version better.

As for Severed Hand, wow, I really hear it there. Yeah, I'm undecided on that one. Especially during the solo.

On the other hand, I'm grateful for his style on You Are. I don't see how that atmosphere benefits from more/larger crashes.

I think you're right, the case is definitely best made in Severed Hand. As for Faithful, as far as I know there was quite a lot of closed hat in the studio version, so that's OK. It works in the verses pretty well.

The songs which are most affected are the older Ten / Vs. era ones. 'Animal' sounds stupid with mostly closed hats.

Lotta nitty gritty up in here..

You love it.

I thought I was being kind in underestimating the number of terrible drummers that don't give any space to songs because they want a cymbalfest every time there is a chorus.

Just listened to the SOS demo for the first time in a couple of years. Wow, so much better than the studio take. Would have been one of the best songs on the album.

What I think you're doing is making some massive generalisations. Time to provide some examples of all these 'terrible drummers' you're talking about. Cymbals -- hihats, crashes, splashes, chinas -- are there to provide texture to a rock song; any song, but especially a rock song. Matt's overuse of a closed hihat or ride cymbal sounds bland and lifeless to me. It's like turning The White Stripes into Dire Straits. That's a specific example right there, all you've said is that drummers constantly ruin choruses by thrashing around on cymbals. In my opinion, Matt is one of the very few *good* rock drummers who persistently lets the life out of a song, like a flat tire, because of his softly-softly approach. You call it 'giving songs space', I call it... most of the time... being a pussy. Thomas Haake: HE is a drummer who knows how to pare it back when he needs to, give a song space, but also when to smack the fuck out of everything. He displays restraint as well as heaviness. Matt seems to display the latter with Soundgarden, so why he so often bows out with Pearl Jam is anyone's guess.

I think I can get behind the "Matt Cameron is too stiff" argument, and his preference for closed hi-hats as a symptom of that. I think he's a great drummer, but he's such a hard-hitter and so robotic that it really sucks the character out of a lot of the older songs. That said, I think Pearl Jam are interesting in that while they have become stiffer songwriters (blockier, more angular songs with less dynamics and simple arrangements) they also seem to have become sloppier players. Maybe they need Matt around to be that muscular base to their generally looser playing, or the whole thing goes teetering down.

I could buy what you're selling.

I can see how that might be the case, but part of the problem (for me, anyway) might be exactly that - Pearl Jam may well sound better if they had a drummer willing to teeter there along with them, rather than be the freight train they're desperate clinging to.

It reminds me of a quote (that I'm probably inventing) by Steve Shelley of Sonic Youth that what he does in the band is basically follow the guitars with his drums, rather than keep a solid beat for the rest of the band to base their noise around. I hear something approaching that in Jack's fills and accents in Pearl Jam in that they often seemed to flow organically out of what the rest of the band were doing. Matt feels more like that figurative freight train: chugging along with scant recognition of exactly what the other band members are doing, just working on getting them from point A to point B in the most precise and efficient manner possible.

I still think his best drumming in Pearl Jam was in 1998, when he barely knew the material. It's probably the loosest and grooviest drumming he's ever done in the band, given he had no choice but to listen intently to what Mike, Stone and Jeff were doing and react accordingly. I'd love to get the 'Live on Two Legs' Matt Cameron back again, though I realise its likely impossible since that style was a function of the particular circumstance of that tour - I don't think he's played those songs better since.

Dammit spenno, don't make me that guy in the bar who is agreeing with everything said by everyone.

Yeah. I think with Matt you've hit the nail on the head. Any interesting drummer (or musicianship, really) involves the ability to listen, listen hard and intently, to everything going on around him. He gives to it but also feeds off it. And I just feel as if Matt may as well be chugging along with his eyes closed most of the time, not really listening. He knows he's metronomically (is that even a word?) perfect, and it stops any meaningful or interesting interaction happening between him and the members. I remember in Unplugged, where Jeff (I think it was) smacked Dave's cymbal with his guitar neck, and there was that shared smile between them. And I miss that. You can hear it in the sound as well as watch it in their faces: the rhythm section is just kind of clinical / functional these days.

I dont know. Yes to most but there are a few songs that Matt Cameron is able to build on an emotional level better than anyone else. Black, Crazy Mary, Corduory - for starts.


Especially Black and Crazy mary ...they are all definitely feeding off eachother very well. Dave A peaked on the first verse.

Alive - Yea he's mostly kind of stiff there.

Pretty much agree with all of that, hence (how did you guess?) Black, Crazy Mary and Corduroy are still among my favourites when I see them live.

I'm not really convinced that has a whole lot to do with whatever Matt's doing (or not doing).

Re: Corduroy and Black. To me, he managed to inject a lot more colour and life into those beats before he knew them inside and out, even if some of that was unintentional. Again, 'Live on Two Legs'.

Crazy Mary, well, he doesn't do anything to grab me there; does his Matt Cameron 'hey, here I am playing yet another 4/4 mid-tempo beat - WHOOP DE FUCKING DOO - I could be playing Jesus Christ Pose right now' chug and lets Mike and Boom noodle away.