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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:58 am 
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This whole discussion is a bit pointless until we have the official boots for this tour. I have been to both Berlin Shows and loved them both. Especially Berlin 2 seemed to be quite errorless. But without bootlegs it seems a bit silly to me to praise this as the best run of shows since "randomyear" or arguing that Pearl Jam shows are a thing to avoid.


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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:17 pm 
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You haven't been here long. Those who have actually been to recent shows and have experienced where pj are at now are routinely shouted down and called fucking idiots for enjoying the shows by those that haven't seen the band on this tour(or in years in some cases) and haven't heard any boots yet. Comes with the territory.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:30 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
You haven't been here long. Those who have actually been to recent shows and have experienced where pj are at now are routinely shouted down and called fucking idiots for enjoying the shows by those that haven't seen the band on this tour(or in years in some cases) and haven't heard any boots yet. Comes with the territory.


As a person who's first show was back in 1996, then hit up pretty much every tour in North America since on multiple dates, and having vast knowledge of there performances from listening to countless bootlegs over and over because I'm fucking crazy and love to makes some mixes.

I can easily say that the band is shell of itself now. Yeah, they put on "fun" shows, but not quality shows anymore. They haven't done quality shows since 2006. I loved the 2008 tour, but it was pretty sloppy. Remember, there were no shows in europe for almost 6 years. That a pretty big chunk of material that you guys missed in it's prime. I'm not saying I am the audio god here, but don't kid yourself if you think there a better band today. There just not, that doesn't mean the shows aren't enjoyable.

But there becoming like a great TV show that has gone on too long. That's what I got from the 2011 shows I saw.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Angus wrote:
they seem to have toured Europe more than the rest of the world combined the last few years?


I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. In 2008 and 2011 they didn't visit Europe at all, and in 2009 and 2010 they played equally as many if not more shows in the U.S. and elsewhere.


Maybe I wasn't being 100% serious there and was just waiting for something to actually count them.

lowlight79 wrote:
Remember, there were no shows in europe for almost 6 years. That a pretty big chunk of material that you guys missed in it's prime.


While I get and respect your point, the only thing is they cancelled their European Riot Act tour plans in september 2003, that's all. That's not that big of a chunk.

*its

I was pretty fed up with RM, but came back for the Euro tour. But this whole discussion and lots of posts in other topics, where it pretty much boils down to some/lots of you saying we're complete idiots for paying for and enjoying these, is really turning me away again. Seriously guys, it's ridiculous. I think I'd rather join the Pit but I'm not a 10C member anymore. Difficult one.


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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:26 pm 
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We're idiots for paying to see these guys and going to shows but a lot of people here don't even seem to like this band anymore and yet still post about them. Is it just to have something to complain about? Never understood it.
While we're talking about idiots and tv shows that have gone on too long.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Let me just clarify my comment because I think it was taken the wrong way. When I say "your a fuckin idiot in my book" I am just saying that's how I feel, I'm not sayin a particular person is one. I am sure alot of people enjoyed the 2012 shows and everyone should enjoy the show they saw. But comments like there better then ever and this is the way they play is so far of base for the truth it's just laughable. If I had cash, I would have gone to a euro show, but my expectations of getting what I got earlier in the band's career is just not there for me anymore. Now there older, but with the prices and lack of shows they provide. They should be better.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Springsteen is playing here tonight(I'm missing it and cranky) buti wonder can the same accusations be thrown at him? Surely his best works behind him and he's trading on old glories? Is he note perfect every night? I wonder

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:51 pm 
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It's a shame that post was bottom paged.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Angus wrote:
they seem to have toured Europe more than the rest of the world combined the last few years?


I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. In 2008 and 2011 they didn't visit Europe at all, and in 2009 and 2010 they played equally as many if not more shows in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Some of the logic here is just beyond my comprehension. I pay $90 for a concert ticket, the band messes up what at this point is probably every second or third song, I express disappointment at this, and I'm the one with the problem? I don't think anyone would expect the band to never make an error, but at what point do you begin holding professionals accountable for their performance beyond "the energy level"? Is it really so unreasonable that some people would go to a concert for the music and not to get some kind of adrenaline rush?

dimejinky99 wrote:
Having seen the first two shows and last two shows of this tour I have to stand up for them and say they are getting better and better. We know this doesn't always translate into boots but for stagecraft and performance on the night they're better now than the last two tours I've seen them. I'm not hung up on missed notes/flubbed lyrics, of which there were few if any that I noticed but they're fitter and more giving on stage than I can remember them being at all over the last 5 or six years or so.
They're still playing certain songs too fast and that's my only quibble with it but overall in terms of setlists and performances, I can't fault them.


I've enjoyed my most recent PJ gigs as much as any I've seen, but I've also been lucky. The last show I saw was St. Louis in 2010, which was a near-perfect show on a good tour. Before that, it was Chicago 1 '09--not quite as solid, but the only song they really butchered was "Life Wasted." In fact, I think I've only seen Pearl Jam as a band truly butcher two songs--that one, and "Elderly Woman" from St. Louis in 2004. Not a bad track record. And I'll agree that there are some imperfections that don't faze me nearly as much in person--the deterioration of Ed's voice being the big one, as despite its shortcomings it's still a powerful instrument that fills a room unlike that of any other singer I've experienced.

That said, I just don't grasp this "it doesn't translate to the boots" business. Right, I understand a bootleg can't fully capture the experience of attending the show. But you make it sound like the bootlegs are somehow falsely capturing flubs and missed lyrics where the in-person performances are actually without error. If their "stagecraft" (?) and the fact that they're "fitter" is enough to have you legitimately believing that they're "getting better and better," I'd say consider yourself lucky. But let's please dispense with this horseshit of granting the band full immunity where accountability for their technical performance is concerned. They're a professional band; a paying audience is well within reason to expect them to conduct themselves as such. For most professional bands, that means enough rehearsal to pull off their own material, not just convening for a couple weeks per year for a vacation which happens to include a few concerts and hoping that everything falls into place upon arrival--which, while I don't like being presumptuous about it, increasingly seems like the status quo.

Last time I saw Eddie live was at a solo show in 2011. The atmosphere of the show was great, and I had a good time. But he forgot the words to almost every non-Ukulele song, and it got old fast. Most people aren't afforded the luxury of showing up for work so unprepared to do their job, and most everyone else gets paid peanuts comparatively. They need to rehearse more. Period.


You didn't call anyone a "fucking idiot", nor did you accuse anybody of calling others "fucking idiots", so obviously this entire post is invalid.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Angus wrote:
they seem to have toured Europe more than the rest of the world combined the last few years?


I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. In 2008 and 2011 they didn't visit Europe at all, and in 2009 and 2010 they played equally as many if not more shows in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Some of the logic here is just beyond my comprehension. I pay $90 for a concert ticket, the band messes up what at this point is probably every second or third song, I express disappointment at this, and I'm the one with the problem? I don't think anyone would expect the band to never make an error, but at what point do you begin holding professionals accountable for their performance beyond "the energy level"? Is it really so unreasonable that some people would go to a concert for the music and not to get some kind of adrenaline rush?

dimejinky99 wrote:
Having seen the first two shows and last two shows of this tour I have to stand up for them and say they are getting better and better. We know this doesn't always translate into boots but for stagecraft and performance on the night they're better now than the last two tours I've seen them. I'm not hung up on missed notes/flubbed lyrics, of which there were few if any that I noticed but they're fitter and more giving on stage than I can remember them being at all over the last 5 or six years or so.
They're still playing certain songs too fast and that's my only quibble with it but overall in terms of setlists and performances, I can't fault them.


I've enjoyed my most recent PJ gigs as much as any I've seen, but I've also been lucky. The last show I saw was St. Louis in 2010, which was a near-perfect show on a good tour. Before that, it was Chicago 1 '09--not quite as solid, but the only song they really butchered was "Life Wasted." In fact, I think I've only seen Pearl Jam as a band truly butcher two songs--that one, and "Elderly Woman" from St. Louis in 2004. Not a bad track record. And I'll agree that there are some imperfections that don't faze me nearly as much in person--the deterioration of Ed's voice being the big one, as despite its shortcomings it's still a powerful instrument that fills a room unlike that of any other singer I've experienced.

That said, I just don't grasp this "it doesn't translate to the boots" business. Right, I understand a bootleg can't fully capture the experience of attending the show. But you make it sound like the bootlegs are somehow falsely capturing flubs and missed lyrics where the in-person performances are actually without error. If their "stagecraft" (?) and the fact that they're "fitter" is enough to have you legitimately believing that they're "getting better and better," I'd say consider yourself lucky. But let's please dispense with this horseshit of granting the band full immunity where accountability for their technical performance is concerned. They're a professional band; a paying audience is well within reason to expect them to conduct themselves as such. For most professional bands, that means enough rehearsal to pull off their own material, not just convening for a couple weeks per year for a vacation which happens to include a few concerts and hoping that everything falls into place upon arrival--which, while I don't like being presumptuous about it, increasingly seems like the status quo.

Last time I saw Eddie live was at a solo show in 2011. The atmosphere of the show was great, and I had a good time. But he forgot the words to almost every non-Ukulele song, and it got old fast. Most people aren't afforded the luxury of showing up for work so unprepared to do their job, and most everyone else gets paid peanuts comparatively. They need to rehearse more. Period.


Every band makes mistakes live. If the odd mistake is gonna be what you remember of the show, you probably shouldn't go anymore because you aren't getting value for money. They'll probably be getting teleprompters before much longer. Maybe that'll improve matters but in the mean time I'm not holding a band to a studio level of performance when as an entity they are only a part time endeavor and I'm thankful for that cos if they were a 2 year world tour sorta band it'd be stale and repetitive extremely quickly and we'd all hate it. I don't really understand those friends who go to see U2 and those kinds of bands every tour. It's the same set every single night with maybe a two song variation here and there but it's also note perfect(pre-recorded/played by others out of view if you believe some people) but that sterility wouldn't attract me at all, even if I knew I could see pj far more often. Different strokes I guess.

Also, gotta disagree about Ed. He was spot on perfect both nights I've seen him. I will be watching for flubs when I see him in a couple of weeks just to be fair.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:10 pm 
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so is anyone at this point yet?

dimejinky99 wrote:
you probably shouldn't go anymore because you aren't getting value for money.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Is it really so unreasonable that some people would go to a concert for the music and not to get some kind of adrenaline rush?


this was interesting to me. i cant go to concerts and not get an adrenaline rush. its like people who ask if you came to a concert to dance. no i didnt come to dance, but its impossible to not dance at a pj show.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:30 pm 
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I wish people would stop going to PJ shows out of obligation. That's the sense I get around here a lot. People go bc they *should", not bc they *want to*.


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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:31 pm 
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is that all we've got?

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:39 pm 
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warehouse wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
Is it really so unreasonable that some people would go to a concert for the music and not to get some kind of adrenaline rush?


this was interesting to me. i cant go to concerts and not get an adrenaline rush. its like people who ask if you came to a concert to dance. no i didnt come to dance, but its impossible to not dance at a pj show.



I can speak for a lot of touring fans when I say that I go nowadays to catch up with friends and hang out with them as much as it is about the shows. It's not about an adrenaline rush. It [i]Is[i] still about the pokemon card factor for me and many others, ie, getting to hear songs you've never heard live(still waiting on Oceans) and that's a large and fun part of it and those chats in the pub after about the first time you saw this or that song or how songs have changed over time. Good stuff. The gigs are at the heart of it but there are many other reasons we go. Not cos we have to.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:44 pm 
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warehouse wrote:
is that all we've got?
:thumbsup: well played.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:51 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
warehouse wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
Is it really so unreasonable that some people would go to a concert for the music and not to get some kind of adrenaline rush?


this was interesting to me. i cant go to concerts and not get an adrenaline rush. its like people who ask if you came to a concert to dance. no i didnt come to dance, but its impossible to not dance at a pj show.



I can speak for a lot of touring fans when I say that I go nowadays to catch up with friends and hang out with them as much as it is about the shows. It's not about an adrenaline rush. It [i]Is[i] still about the pokemon card factor for me and many others, ie, getting to hear songs you've never heard live(still waiting on Oceans) and that's a large and fun part of it and those chats in the pub after about the first time you saw this or that song or how songs have changed over time. Good stuff. The gigs are at the heart of it but there are many other reasons we go. Not cos we have to.

different strokes and all but thats definitely not why i go to a show.

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:34 pm 
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bmacsmith wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
warehouse wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
Is it really so unreasonable that some people would go to a concert for the music and not to get some kind of adrenaline rush?


this was interesting to me. i cant go to concerts and not get an adrenaline rush. its like people who ask if you came to a concert to dance. no i didnt come to dance, but its impossible to not dance at a pj show.



I can speak for a lot of touring fans when I say that I go nowadays to catch up with friends and hang out with them as much as it is about the shows. It's not about an adrenaline rush. It [i]Is[i] still about the pokemon card factor for me and many others, ie, getting to hear songs you've never heard live(still waiting on Oceans) and that's a large and fun part of it and those chats in the pub after about the first time you saw this or that song or how songs have changed over time. Good stuff. The gigs are at the heart of it but there are many other reasons we go. Not cos we have to.

different strokes and all but thats definitely not why i go to a show.

Yeah, I'm pretty much completely repelled by the idea of going on the road with a bunch of other Pearl Jam fans and talking about Pearl Jam and listening to Pearl Jam and then going to Pearl Jam shows and OMGPEARLJAM. I know people enjoy doing that but it sounds really not fun at all. Especially when the music itself becomes secondary - or, at least, lower in importance than the overall experience. My normal life is fulfilling enough, I'm just there for the tunes.

Nobody is comparing Pearl Jam to some hypothetical standard of perfection, we're comparing them to how good they actually used to be. Most of those who have issues with the band (myself, lowlight, KD, Cameronia, etc.) have seen the band a number of times and have listened to a huge number of their live recordings: the band objectively sound worse in the past five years than at any time previously. Like lowlight said, it's fine to go to a show with reduced or no expectation and still enjoy it, but you're inviting people to question your posts when making statements indicating the band are getting better and better and that they're at their peak right now, etc. Enthusiasm and excitement are understandable but it's ridiculous to not expect any kind of critical assessment of the shows at all lest it harsh your mellow.

I do genuinely think these guys have changed into a different kind of band over the last five years, both live and on record, and I'm not really interested anymore - but I'm hardly going to stop posting, since I still enjoy the old records and interacting with everyone on here. Perhaps there's a chance they'll surprise me in the future, even if the chances of that seem increasingly remote.


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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:06 pm 
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spenno wrote:
the band objectively sound worse in the past five years than at any time previously.


I agree with you spenno, but this is reaching. Objectively? By what measure? I've been listening to the Japan 2003 jaunt, and there are more screw-ups in those shows than most 2008-2012 shows. Despite that, I LOVE those shows because they are quiet, intense, unique. What objective yardstick are you using? I can easily see someone preferring present-day PJ to earlier shows. They jam out songs more than before, the sets are more varied, and yeah, they are more "fun".

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 Post subject: Re: European Tour 2012 - It's Over. Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:13 pm 
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I also would say that I vastly prefer 2012 live PJ to 1990-1993 live PJ. I cannot force myself to listen to those immature, testosterone-laden, "see how much I can throw myself around while hitting everything as hard as possible" shows. So while I agree that they have gone downhill since 2006, I don't agree with "this is the worst they have EVER been".

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