I hit my pre-boil volume pretty much right on. Maybe a shade under, but I actually ended up adding some water towards the end of my boil (maybe 20 minutes left) because I seemed to be losing a lot to evaporation. I based my recipe on 6 gallons in the fermenter and I'm pretty much right on that. I thought 84% sounded high...I'm sure I'll figure this out after I brew a few more batches.

I actually used a ratio of 1.5 on this batch AND replaced the absorbed water. My first runoff was a tad less than expected, but I compensated with the 2nd infusion. So, in your method, are you adding sparge water before you take your first running (not counting recirculation)? That was one thing I was unclear on in a previous post you made. It sounded like you were recirculating, then adding more water, and then doing a runoff. And then repeating with the higher water temp. No?

Nope. There's no need to add water after mashing and before sparging. I just recirculate until it runs clear then drain the mash. Then I add first sparge water (hotter than second sparge water), stir well, let it sit for 10 min. (temp should be at 170) then drain. Then I add second sparge water, repeat and drain until I hit my pre-boil volume. I also check the gravity of the runnings towards the end of sparging being careful not to let the gravity drop below 1.008 as you'll be extracting tannins. That's it.

Does your software calculate water lost to grain absorption and total water necessary?

Yes, the app does make those calculations and I can adjust the rate of absorption (what do you use?). I'm still messing with some of the settings, trying to get it dialed in. Do you just split your water in equal parts to sparge? I think I remember saying you sparged at 200 and then 170. I saw an article a while back (before I knew much of anything about all-grain) where a guy sparged with cold water and found that it did not negatively impact his efficiencies.

As far as gravity readings during the sparge...I didn't do that, but I may going forward. So, if I understand you correctly, you aren't concerned about adding too much sparge water so long as you pull enough for your boil and you don't pull anything under 1.008? I assume that if you are pulling anything under 1.008, you are overwashing and releasing tannins? Am I on the right train of thought there?

Also, do you have any suggestions for monitoring mash temps--or do you even care once you dial in your strike temps? I rigged a candy thermometer to hang inside my tun, but I have to lift the lid to check it. I see some people on various brewing forums use a probe-type thermometer.

Correct.

I let Brewsmith calculate my absorption for me. They base it on your equipment and grain bill.

As far as mash temps I use a basic glass thermometer (6 bucks at my LHBS). Once I'm at my correct temps I put on my lid and never check it again. I lose maybe 1 degree. If it's cold in my kitchen (I mash in my house and boil outside) I might wrap a blanket around the cooler but I rarely do.

The ipad app calculates it based on the grain bill, but the ratio is actually a variable you can adjust, and I do not believe the app takes into account what the actual bill is made up of (knowing that absorption rates vary by the grain). I think the generally accepted rate is .125 gallons/lb of grain. I'll mess with it until I feel like it is as accurate as possible.

Ok, another question! I used a formula to give me a strike temp for my mash water, and it accounts for the temperature of the grain. I didn't really have anything to measure that with, so I estimated. But let's say you get everything in your mash tun and you are higher or lower than you wanted. You already mentioned that you are mashing at 1.4q/lb, so do you just add water (cold or hot) to dial in your temp? I guess I was thinking about lowering my ratio down to 1.25 or so to allow me some room to adjust my temperature.

Again, thanks for your help.

I warm up my cooler with hot water then drain it and add my grain before mashing. I'm assuming my grain is at room emp (67ish) so I put in 75 degrees for grain temp. If you want to you could always put your grain in and stick a thermometer into the middle of it for an exact temp.

I let beersmith calculate my strike temp and I'm always within a degree or so. I would just keep your water to grain ratio where you want it and add water to adjust temp for now. Better it be too liquid than too thick. After a few more batches you'll be nailing your mash temp. anyway.

Also, if you're not on http://www.homebrewtalk.com yet, join up. It's an awesome resource.

Yeah, I have an account there but I haven't really started posting yet. I've read many a thread there, though.

The ingredients for your ESB will be here at the end of the week, so I'm going to look at possibly brewing up the double batch this weekend! It's going to be interesting working with that much grain and water!

Went home for lunch a little while ago and took a whiff of that porter sitting on those raspberries. Man it smells delicious! I love homebrewing!

Vegman, I was listening to a podcast just now and they were talking about malt character. It reminded me of you talking about how you wanted to experiment with a bigger malt profile in your ESB. Anyways, the first thing they suggested was using Melanoidin Malt, which I do not believe I have ever tried. They suggested using it at 2 to 3% of your bill, so you could either simply add it or sub it for something else.

Also, the other method they discussed was boiling the first 2 gallons (or so) of your first runnings. The idea being that you expose the most concentrated wort to intense heat which sort of turbocharges your malt profile. They didn't discuss exact times for that boil, but it sounded like it wasn't a real long time. Anyways, I just thought of you when I heard this...maybe it'll give you some things to consider if you want to tweak that ESB. I wish I'd heard this before I ordered the ingredients for myself--I would have tried it for sure.

Cheers!

I'm not a big fan of Melanoidin Malt. Something about the malty taste it gives turns me off. Decoction mashing would definitely work but it's a royal pain in the ass. I did a traditional Hefe w/ a triple decotion mash and my kitchen looked like a bomb went off by the time I was done. I'm just going to try the no sparge technique using extra base malt. My buddy tried it with his ESB and it added just a touch more malt backbone which is what I want. The recipe is great as it is, I just like to fool around batch to batch.

I'm still learning about mashing and all the various techniques, but I do not believe they were talking about decoction mashing. They weren't recirculating the wort--simply boiling it before continuing with the sparge. One of the guys mentioned that it lended a slight caramelized quality to the brew and brought out a different malt characteristic. Let me know how that no sparge technique works for you.

Decoction mashing is basically removing a pre-determined volume of your mash, boiling it and returning it to the mash, using the boiling temp to bring you up to the next step of the mash. It's a multi-rest mash and a total pain in the ass.

So I've been thinking about this ESB recipe and looking into Melanoidin Malt and am now realizing it's pretty much the same thing as the Aromatic Malt I have in my recipe. I think the only difference is that Melanoidin Malt is a German malt and Aromatic is a Belgian Malt. Both contribute a strong malty complexity to the brew. I had previously used the Melanoidin in a Belgian Dubbel and am wondering if it tasted off because I should have gone with the Aromatic? Hmmm.

Might be time for a comparison then!

I think I'll probably brew your ESB this weekend. Since I'm doing a double batch, I'll have no real reference for comparison, but I think I may boil (but not recirculate) my first runnings. I was intrigued by the some of the flavor characteristics they were talking about on that podcast.

I'm expecting a good beer!

So, how'd you do with the ESB?

I'll let you know soon. I'm kegging tonight, but it'll be a little bit before they hit the tap. I have a vanilla stout coming to tap soon, as well as a black IPA--I'll mix those 2 kegs of ESB in there somewhere. After tonight I'll have 6 kegs in various stages of readiness! I'm in a nice groove these days.

Speaking of ESB, I did a Pyramid ESB clone kit about a month ago and tapped it last week. Dear god, it is so delicious. Nice and malty, and there is an awesome butterscotch note in the finish.

Cool. I haven't tried Pyramid's ESB yet but it sounds like I should.

I've never had Pyramid's ESB either--just the clone I made. You should definitely seek it out, though, since it seems like it might have the malt character you are looking for. I pulled a sample taste out of one of my fermentors on your ESB recipe, and the two beers are definitely different in that regard. I was thinking that I might try and figure out what accounts for the difference as a way of getting your ESB to where you want it.

I'm happy with my ESB recipe. I've brewed it as is at least half a dozen times. I was just looking to try the no sparge to see if it would actually affect the flavor as much as my buddy seems to think it does since it also saves a bit of time. I'm brewing an English IPA next weekend and I'm going to give it a shot with that recipe.

Also, butterscotch smell/flavor can sometimes indicate high diacetyl levels which usually result from warm fermentations and/or weak boils.

I see. Well, I'm always one to tinker with a recipe myself, so I'll probably try a few different things on that recipe down the road too.

It is entirely possible that the pyramid has a high diacytel level. It would have been fermenting during the warmest part of the year here where I live. In fact, I looked into various fermentor cooling methods for next summer...anyways, if that is responsible for the flavor it is a happy accident because I find it downright delicious, as does everyone who has tried it. It isn't a real prominent flavor, and I could probably call it caramel just as easy as I could butterscotch.

I'm still so new to all-grain brewing that I'm still learning about all of these little variables.