Red Mosquito :: View topic - Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?

Why stop at $8k? How about $40K, that would prevent even more drunk drivers by your reasoning. More punitive will not solve the problem. I see how effective this type of strategy has been on the drug trade, so I guess you're looking for the same type of results here.

Yes, I believe the punishment has to hurt. But wouldn't it be more effective to prohibit driving for a long period, say a year, mandate outpatient alcohol concelling funded by a tax on alcohol, and as atonement have to do a 1,000 hours of community service. I believe that everysentence should have three parts to it; a punishment, a preventative measure to reoccurance and atonement. Punishment alone is not very effective.

Quote:

for the same reason the death penalty is not used in a robbery case where no one was killed
to some extent, it's proportionality

addiction is not involuntary.

thodoks wrote:

addiction is not involuntary.

Do your research. Addiction is as voluntary as sexuality. You choose to be an addict to the same extent you choose to be gay or you choose to get cancer. It's how you deal with it once you know you are. A cancer patient should get treatment, an addict should get treatment. Blaming a sick person for not getting treatment for a disease that pushes them not to get treatment is absurd.

tyler wrote:

I might ask how you have concluded that 25 weeks x 40 hours a week of community service would have a lesser financial impact on an alcoholic and his family than would an $8,000 fine?

thodoks wrote:

addiction is not involuntary.

More punitive will not solve the problem. I see how effective this type of strategy has been on the drug trade, so I guess you're looking for the same type of results here.

tyler wrote:

thodoks wrote:

addiction is not involuntary.

You choose to be gay, you choose to get cancer? What in the hell are you talking about?

Eh. The justice system in the US is designed to administer justice. It's not about, nor should it be about, prevention. When the justice system starts caring more about how to prevent crime than it cares about administering justice is the day we cease to live in a just society. Preventing crime is the duty of society, not the duty of the courts.

Buffalohed wrote:

i think the courts can play a role in prevention by choosing to send people to rehab over jail on a case to case basis and not sacrifice its role as arbiter of justice

thodoks wrote:

addiction is not involuntary.

Eh. The justice system in the US is designed to administer justice. It's not about, nor should it be about, prevention.

Oh, and I think it's worth mentioning in this thread that Kris is definitely a guy that's high on my "have a beer with" list.

Author:	Buffalohed [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
None of this is of consequence to the heart of this issue (though I agree with thodoks thoroughly). That is, that driving drunk is a deliberate and willful act that seriously injures and kills people. Driving drunk should be held as the equivalent of attempted manslaughter or attempted murder. It should hold a lofty fine and a mandatory jail sentence. If the person has a "disease" (alcoholism (lol)) that determines that they are mentally unfit or clinically insane or whatever it is, then they can be sentenced to time in rehabilitation or a mental hospital or whatever people get sentenced to if they are unfit to stand trial. An alcoholic driving drunk, to me, is the logical equivalent of a person with AIDS walking around in public spitting blood on people. That person did not choose to get AIDS, but he did choose to engage in an act that puts other citizens at risk of death or disease.

Author:	tyler [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
Why stop at $8k? How about $40K, that would prevent even more drunk drivers by your reasoning. More punitive will not solve the problem. I see how effective this type of strategy has been on the drug trade, so I guess you're looking for the same type of results here. Yes, I believe the punishment has to hurt. But wouldn't it be more effective to prohibit driving for a long period, say a year, mandate outpatient alcohol concelling funded by a tax on alcohol, and as atonement have to do a 1,000 hours of community service. I believe that everysentence should have three parts to it; a punishment, a preventative measure to reoccurance and atonement. Punishment alone is not very effective. To follow up on BH, yes, dunk driving causing death should result in a mandatory manslaughter charge and jail time.

Author:	Buffalohed [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
On another note, I think the drinking age should be removed altogether. I also think the smoking age should be removed altogether. I also happen to think that all drugs, including heroin and crack, should be legal. Of course, none of this would work unless you couple it with my idea of how social services like medicaid and welfare should operate.

Author:	Buffalohed [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
I am simply proposing that drunk driving be treated the same as other offenses of equal severity under our law. That is, attempted manslaughter and reckless endangerment. This proposal is rather unconcerned with the broader picture of how exactly to prevent drunk driving and is more designed to address judicial concerns only. The intended result is justice only.

Author:	dkfan9 [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
Quote: Why stop at $8k? How about $40K, that would prevent even more drunk drivers by your reasoning. More punitive will not solve the problem. I see how effective this type of strategy has been on the drug trade, so I guess you're looking for the same type of results here. for the same reason the death penalty is not used in a robbery case where no one was killed to some extent, it's proportionality

Red Mosquito http://archive.theskyiscrape.com/

Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age? http://archive.theskyiscrape.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=68968	Page 6 of 7

Author:	Buffalohed [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
tyler wrote: Yes, I believe the punishment has to hurt. But wouldn't it be more effective to prohibit driving for a long period, say a year, mandate outpatient alcohol concelling funded by a tax on alcohol, and as atonement have to do a 1,000 hours of community service. I believe that everysentence should have three parts to it; a punishment, a preventative measure to reoccurance and atonement. Punishment alone is not very effective. I might ask how you have concluded that 25 weeks x 40 hours a week of community service would have a lesser financial impact on an alcoholic and his family than would an $8,000 fine?

Author:	tyler [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
thodoks wrote: addiction is not involuntary. Do your research. Addiction is as voluntary as sexuality. You choose to be an addict to the same extent you choose to be gay or you choose to get cancer. It's how you deal with it once you know you are. A cancer patient should get treatment, an addict should get treatment. Blaming a sick person for not getting treatment for a disease that pushes them not to get treatment is absurd.

Author:	Buffalohed [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
tyler wrote: thodoks wrote: addiction is not involuntary. Do your research. Addiction is as voluntary as sexuality. You choose to be an addict to the same extent you choose to be gay or you choose to get cancer. It's how you deal with it once you know you are. A cancer patient should get treatment, an addict should get treatment. Blaming a sick person for not getting treatment for a disease that pushes them not to get treatment is absurd.

Author:	tyler [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
Buffalohed wrote: tyler wrote: Yes, I believe the punishment has to hurt. But wouldn't it be more effective to prohibit driving for a long period, say a year, mandate outpatient alcohol concelling funded by a tax on alcohol, and as atonement have to do a 1,000 hours of community service. I believe that everysentence should have three parts to it; a punishment, a preventative measure to reoccurance and atonement. Punishment alone is not very effective. I might ask how you have concluded that 25 weeks x 40 hours a week of community service would have a lesser financial impact on an alcoholic and his family than would an $8,000 fine? I'd be happy if it was 10 hours a week, spread over 2 years. The idea is to get the person giving something back to the community rather than taking from the community. The 10 hours a week could be an all day once a week, 3 hours an evening 3 or 4 days a week. The idea is not to destroy families. The heavy punitive criminal justice system in the US is by far the least effective criminal justice system in the G20. The US is decades behind in getting a grip on the problem. When your focus is on punishment, your focus is too late. Every dollar spent on punishment is a dollar not spent on preventative maintenance. The US is not safer by jailing or fining drunk drivers, it's safer by doing everything to prevent drunk drivers to start with.

Author:	jwfocker [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
tyler wrote: thodoks wrote: addiction is not involuntary. Do your research. Addiction is as voluntary as sexuality. You choose to be an addict to the same extent you choose to be gay or you choose to get cancer. It's how you deal with it once you know you are. A cancer patient should get treatment, an addict should get treatment. Blaming a sick person for not getting treatment for a disease that pushes them not to get treatment is absurd. You choose to be gay, you choose to get cancer? What in the hell are you talking about?

Author:	thodoks [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
tyler wrote: More punitive will not solve the problem. I see how effective this type of strategy has been on the drug trade, so I guess you're looking for the same type of results here. apples and oranges. the drug trade seeks to suppress the supply of something for which there is significant demand, leading to undesirable unintended consequences. this fine seeks to alter behavior for which there are many low-cost substitutes (taxis, friends, drinking at home, etc). the goal is to induce the drinker to substitute undesirable behavior (drunk driving) for more desirable behavior (drunk riding, or drunk couch-sitting). the correct comparision would have been prohibition vs. the drug trade. and yes, both were (and are) wildly unsuccessful. tyler wrote: Yes, I believe the punishment has to hurt. But wouldn't it be more effective to prohibit driving for a long period, say a year, mandate outpatient alcohol concelling funded by a tax on alcohol, and as atonement have to do a 1,000 hours of community service. I believe that everysentence should have three parts to it; a punishment, a preventative measure to reoccurance and atonement. Punishment alone is not very effective. prohibiting driving for a year makes it more difficult for our drunk to commute following his arrest, increasing the costs associated with driving to and from work. this could unnecessarily affect his ability to maintain employment and earn a living. a fine imposes far fewer post-incident costs on the drunk, and actually gives him an incentive to work harder. agreed that punishment alone is an insufficient means to curbing the problem.

Author:	dkfan9 [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
jwfocker wrote: tyler wrote: thodoks wrote: addiction is not involuntary. Do your research. Addiction is as voluntary as sexuality. You choose to be an addict to the same extent you choose to be gay or you choose to get cancer. It's how you deal with it once you know you are. A cancer patient should get treatment, an addict should get treatment. Blaming a sick person for not getting treatment for a disease that pushes them not to get treatment is absurd. You choose to be gay, you choose to get cancer? What in the hell are you talking about? he's saying you don't choose to be either, and you also don't choose to be an alcoholic

Author:	Buffalohed [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
Eh. The justice system in the US is designed to administer justice. It's not about, nor should it be about, prevention. When the justice system starts caring more about how to prevent crime than it cares about administering justice is the day we cease to live in a just society. Preventing crime is the duty of society, not the duty of the courts.

Author:	dkfan9 [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
Buffalohed wrote: Eh. The justice system in the US is designed to administer justice. It's not about, nor should it be about, prevention. When the justice system starts caring more about how to prevent crime than it cares about administering justice is the day we cease to live in a just society. Preventing crime is the duty of society, not the duty of the courts. i think the courts can play a role in prevention by choosing to send people to rehab over jail on a case to case basis and not sacrifice its role as arbiter of justice

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Author:	Buffalohed [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
dkfan9 wrote: Buffalohed wrote: Eh. The justice system in the US is designed to administer justice. It's not about, nor should it be about, prevention. When the justice system starts caring more about how to prevent crime than it cares about administering justice is the day we cease to live in a just society. Preventing crime is the duty of society, not the duty of the courts. i think the courts can play a role in prevention by choosing to send people to rehab over jail on a case to case basis and not sacrifice its role as arbiter of justice stating the obvious

Author:	thodoks [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
tyler wrote: thodoks wrote: addiction is not involuntary. Do your research. Addiction is as voluntary as sexuality. You choose to be an addict to the same extent you choose to be gay or you choose to get cancer. It's how you deal with it once you know you are. A cancer patient should get treatment, an addict should get treatment. Blaming a sick person for not getting treatment for a disease that pushes them not to get treatment is absurd. i do not believe being gay is a choice. i do not believe being predisposed to addiction is a choice. but it does NOT necessarily follow that possessing attribute X leads to behavior Y. i cannot control who i'm attracted to. but i can control who i date, how often i date, and whether i'm faithful. addicts cannot control that they're predisposed to addiction. but they can control what they're addicted to, how often they indulge their addictions, and whether to seek help for said addiction. in short, they are in complete control, at all times, of the relative condition of their health and disease. have you ever met someone with cancer who could say that?

Author:	dkfan9 [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
on a side note, and to preempt any potential arguments, gay people could choose to not engage in gay activities if they wished. however, their activities are of NO HARM to society, so there is no reason to limit them. drunk driving, on the other hand, is harmful to society.

Author:	Green Habit [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
Buffalohed wrote: Eh. The justice system in the US is designed to administer justice. It's not about, nor should it be about, prevention. Not to get even further off topic, but I'm not sure it should be about either one of those. The primary goal should definitely be to protect society. Oh, and I think it's worth mentioning in this thread that Kris is definitely a guy that's high on my "have a beer with" list.

Author:	thodoks [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Should the U.S. Lower the Drinking Age?
Green Habit wrote: Oh, and I think it's worth mentioning in this thread that Kris is definitely a guy that's high on my "have a beer with" list. do you drink good beer?