In your former, I don't care why he is in Africa as long as it gets done. If I was judging him, I'd think he's a moron for going for that reason but in the grander scheme of things they both identical to society. The latter isn't a fair comparison, imo.

When we are talking about OUR OWN relationships, I agree, intent matters clearly.

some acts -- like donating to a charity -- make it easy to see a bottom line (ie, the amount donated). but outside the moral worth of our cause for action. there are too many extremely complex acts in our life in which things get fucked up and all we are left with are our reasons.

why not?

See, I think everyone realizes they are doing it for their own good, even if they choose to deny it to themselves.

Another reason why intent (which can't be measured) isn't nearly as important as actions (which can be objectively measured).

all actions are predicated on what we perceive that we have most reason to do, are they now?

ok, so, guy jumps in front of an oncoming subway train and tackles a man who fell down there, saving his life as he drags the fallen man to the side. where in here is selfish action?

Cause it's not apples/apples. You are comparing someone dying in 2 different examples. I'm more concerned about the person doing the killing - not the person dying.

In this case, a suicide bomber and a soldier are two very different things. For your analogy to make sense to me you'd have to say something like:

Is it any better a guy blowing himself up for money (maybe his family is dirt poor and they need money to survive) or for god? I'd say, no, it doesn't matter. The guy just fucking blew me up. Again, speaking from a "macro" perspective.

Just because things happen QUICKLY doesn't make them any less selfish. That person is wired in a way that they can't bare to see other humans suffer and it would cause immeasurable pain to watch the other person die in front of their eyes. It's extremely heroic but he made a decision to do it alleviate his pain had he done nothing. Yes, all in a matter of seconds.

Don't talk to me like we are in college I have no idea what you're talking about.

actions can only be objectively measured when considering the intent and surrounding circumstances. like i said, 100 civilians dead seems more acceptable if the 100 civilians dead were unfortunate collateral damage killed by cruise missiles taking out a terrorist afghani bomb-making factory as compared to 100 civilians dead due to a suicide bombing. clearly, we deplore the suicide bomber, while giving our politicians and war chiefs some leeway. and why? because of their intentions.

He gets to feel like a caring human being. He rewarded that impulse that wanted to take that action by actually taking that action. No different from a junkie taking their next fix.

have you ever heard of mirror neurons? empathy?

but like i said before, he clearly didn't contemplate this action. he just acted on reflexive altruistic motives.

He is wired in a way that has him to do that, based on minimizing his dissonance.

You say objectively measure but there's no such thing. What are you measuring against? An ever changing set of morals? How is that objective? Who's set of morals do you use to measure against?

Your object measure is just the bullshit we make up to feel good or bad about actions.

That's right. If he was really a hero, he would have stood there and just watched the guy get wasted by the train. Fucking wimp just gave into his base impulses.

If I live in a village and my son dies, be it a terrorist attack or a cruise missile, I don't give a shit about your intentions. My son is dead. It's identical to me.

what i meant is, intent actually seems to be everything, because we don't have actions without intentions. we act only when we think we have good reason to act. to think that the bottom line is consequence and nothing else breaks down an enormously complex situation to something that is often out of our reach of control.

hahahaha.

of course, but it's impossible for you to be anywhere near objective in a situation like that.