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 Post subject: National Driver License?
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:06 pm 
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From The San Francisco Chronicle

Tough national driver's-license standards near
Requirement that states verify citizenship is attached to a must-pass war measure

Washington -- Congressional negotiators moved quickly Monday toward setting strict rules on how states issue driver's licenses, requiring them to verify whether each applicant for a new license or a renewal is in this country legally.

The provisions would also complete the border fence between California and Mexico, sources involved in the talks said.

A House and Senate conference now taking place has included the requirements, which apply to all 50 states and other jurisdictions that issue licenses, in an appropriations bill for continuing military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, aides involved in the process said.

State officials complain that the new requirements would add a costly, complicated burden to the issuing of driver's licenses, which has been their responsibility for almost a century. Civil rights organizations and privacy advocates say they are concerned that a standardized driver's license would amount to a national identification card and that a central database would be vulnerable to identity theft.

The proposed regulations would replace a provision of the intelligence bill passed in December that called on state and federal agencies to develop new rules for licenses. That law did not specifically require states to check the citizenship or immigration status of applicants.

Eleven states now grant driver's licenses to noncitizens who do not have visas. There is no reliable estimate of how many licenses have been issued to noncitizens, whether in the country legally or illegally.

Some of the ideas in the new measure were rejected in the December debate. But House conservatives, led by Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., threatened to block passage of the intelligence bill until they won an agreement that they could try again this year. They got a pledge from the leadership to include the driver's license measures in a must-pass bill this year.

Under the rules being considered, before granting a driver's license, a state would have to require proof of citizenship or legal presence, of an address, and of a Social Security number. It would need to check the legal status of noncitizens against a national immigration database, to save copies of any documents shown and to store a digital image of the face of each applicant.

The licenses issued would have to include the driver's address and a digital photograph, and would incorporate new authentication features designed to prevent counterfeits.

States still could give licenses to illegal immigrants, but they would have different designs or colors to alert security officers that they are unacceptable as IDs for boarding planes or entering federal buildings.

The border fence provision would speed up completion of a 3.5-mile gap in the fence between San Diego and Tijuana, Mexico.

The new law would require that the licenses of legal temporary residents expire when their visas do.

It is unclear how the legislation would affect the renewal of licenses for citizens.

States would have three years after the bill becomes law to meet the standards or their driver's licenses wouldn't be accepted by federal officers for identification.

Supporters of the law say it addresses important security problems, and they note that some of the 19 hijackers in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks used driver's licenses as identification when checking in, and that a few had had expired visas. Supporters also say the measure would help control illegal immigration.

Caroline Espinosa, a spokeswoman for NumbersUSA, a group that lobbies for tighter borders and tougher immigration laws, said, "This is really targeted toward national security, but a side effect would be discouraging illegal immigrants from coming into the United States and making it more difficult for them to open a bank account, buy a house, rent a car or buy a car."

State officials and some senators say the new provision, known as the Real ID measure, would impose procedures -- such as the authentication of birth certificates -- that would be difficult to meet.

A bipartisan group of senators -- John Sununu of New Hampshire, Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut, Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Durbin of Illinois -- complained about the proposal in a recent letter to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.

The legislation won't be final until the House and Senate vote on it. The House could take it up later this week but the Senate won't vote until after it reconvenes May 9. The legislation is all but certain to pass.

Cheye Calvo, the director of the transportation committee at the National Council of State Legislatures, predicted that unintended conflicts would emerge from the proposed measure, which he noted would become law without any hearings.

Referring to the various state departments of motor vehicles, Calvo said, "Is the goal here to shut down DMVs?"

However, many state licensing officials have long recognized a need for tighter standards and for better linking of databases, because many drivers whose licenses are revoked in one state quickly get a license in another.

The National Council of State Legislatures said the new rules would cost the states $500 million to adopt.

The new rules have been propelled forward by an unlikely combination of factors. House conservatives have said they will not consider an expanded temporary worker program that is a goal of President Bush and business groups until what they call "border security measures" are adopted. Strategists working with the White House say they have accepted the need to accommodate the conservatives in order to win support for a package of changes in immigration law.
The key provisions

Under the rules being considered, states would have to follow these steps before granting a driver's license:

-- Require proof of citizenship or legal presence.

-- Require an address.

-- Require a Social Security number.

-- Check the legal status of noncitizens against a national immigration database and save copies of any documents shown.

-- Store a digital image of the face of each applicant.

-- Include the driver's address and a digital photograph on the license.

-- Use technology designed to prevent counterfeits.

States still could give licenses to illegal immigrants, but they would have different designs or colors to alert security officers that they are unacceptable as IDs for boarding planes or entering federal buildings.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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I have no problem with this, but a lot of people seem to be scared to death of it. The only reason you have a driver license NOW is so that law enforcement officials can identify you. You also already have a national ID, it was issued to you at birth. How Orwellian, huh? :arrow:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:44 pm 
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I don't have a problem with this. But I'd also rather have a national educational system too.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:49 pm 
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I really just have a problem with one requirement:

[img]-- Require an address. [/img]

What if you live in your car? Mobile home?
Plus, just b/c your currently homeless and carless, does that mean you can't have a driver's license?
Plus, is an address that critical? People move all the time.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:57 pm 
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just_b wrote:
I really just have a problem with one requirement:

[img]-- Require an address. [/img]

What if you live in your car? Mobile home?
Plus, just b/c your currently homeless and carless, does that mean you can't have a driver's license?
Plus, is an address that critical? People move all the time.

The only reason my address on my license is current is because I lost my old license and had to get a new one. Otherwise I'd still have a license with an address two addresses ago. My license also expires on my 40th birthday, so I imagine I'll probably move again before then.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:05 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
I really just have a problem with one requirement:

[img]-- Require an address. [/img]

What if you live in your car? Mobile home?
Plus, just b/c your currently homeless and carless, does that mean you can't have a driver's license?
Plus, is an address that critical? People move all the time.

The only reason my address on my license is current is because I lost my old license and had to get a new one. Otherwise I'd still have a license with an address two addresses ago. My license also expires on my 40th birthday, so I imagine I'll probably move again before then.
I actually had a cop harass me about my address not being current. He told me he could fine me for it. I had actually moved a month prior and told him and he was telling me it was my responsibility to get it done the day of the move. :lol: Like that's my first priority.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:36 pm 
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Cartman wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
I really just have a problem with one requirement:

[img]-- Require an address. [/img]

What if you live in your car? Mobile home?
Plus, just b/c your currently homeless and carless, does that mean you can't have a driver's license?
Plus, is an address that critical? People move all the time.

The only reason my address on my license is current is because I lost my old license and had to get a new one. Otherwise I'd still have a license with an address two addresses ago. My license also expires on my 40th birthday, so I imagine I'll probably move again before then.
I actually had a cop harass me about my address not being current. He told me he could fine me for it. I had actually moved a month prior and told him and he was telling me it was my responsibility to get it done the day of the move. :lol: Like that's my first priority.


I've been harassed about this before too. I got pulled over for speeding the cop was telling me how I should have gotten my address changed, and I really had just moved a couple of weeks ago. When I finally got my license renewed a few weeks ago, because it was about to expire, it still had the address from about 4 moves ago. :P

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:39 pm 
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Cartman wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
I really just have a problem with one requirement:

[img]-- Require an address. [/img]

What if you live in your car? Mobile home?
Plus, just b/c your currently homeless and carless, does that mean you can't have a driver's license?
Plus, is an address that critical? People move all the time.

The only reason my address on my license is current is because I lost my old license and had to get a new one. Otherwise I'd still have a license with an address two addresses ago. My license also expires on my 40th birthday, so I imagine I'll probably move again before then.
I actually had a cop harass me about my address not being current. He told me he could fine me for it. I had actually moved a month prior and told him and he was telling me it was my responsibility to get it done the day of the move. :lol: Like that's my first priority.

In Wisconsin, you can just call the DMV and give them addy change info over the phone and they change it in their database. Your license isn't changed, but they know where you live.

I lived in Chicago and Milwaukee for a year and a half with a New York drivers license and New York plates on my car. Only when they expired did I get new ones where I actually lived.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:43 pm 
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Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:19 pm 
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just_b wrote:
Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.


A dick that's following the "rules."

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:30 pm 
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turkey sub jr. wrote:
just_b wrote:
Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.


A dick that's following the "rules."


Lots of people enforce lots of rules every day w/o "harassing" people or being a dick.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:40 pm 
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just_b wrote:
turkey sub jr. wrote:
just_b wrote:
Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.


A dick that's following the "rules."


Lots of people enforce lots of rules every day w/o "harassing" people or being a dick.

The rules are for poor people and minorities, every cop knows that.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:44 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
turkey sub jr. wrote:
just_b wrote:
Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.


A dick that's following the "rules."


Lots of people enforce lots of rules every day w/o "harassing" people or being a dick.

The rules are for poor people and minorities, every cop knows that.


Yeah, it's all fun and games making cracks like that until you need 'em.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:48 pm 
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turkey sub jr. wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
turkey sub jr. wrote:
just_b wrote:
Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.


A dick that's following the "rules."


Lots of people enforce lots of rules every day w/o "harassing" people or being a dick.

The rules are for poor people and minorities, every cop knows that.


Yeah, it's all fun and games making cracks like that until you need 'em.


I'd have more respect for policeman if they didn't use a routine traffic stop as a reason to be a total dick to me.

Some Cop wrote:
Y'know, most people stop a stop signs.


Fucker! You know god damn well every driver rolls through that stop sign! You caught me! Great! Just give me the ticket and don't act like I just shot a little girl.

That's what I wish I'd said.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:52 pm 
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turkey sub jr. wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
turkey sub jr. wrote:
just_b wrote:
Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.


A dick that's following the "rules."


Lots of people enforce lots of rules every day w/o "harassing" people or being a dick.

The rules are for poor people and minorities, every cop knows that.


Yeah, it's all fun and games making cracks like that until you need 'em.

A traitorous comedian once said, "You never want to see a cop until you own a house." Well, I own a house, and have excellent relations with police officers. But they are dicks in the same proportions as other people, and when they are dicks, they are huge, aching, venous dicks with guns and badges.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:10 pm 
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When you think about it, it's odd that an object which has the main purpose of allowing a person to drive has instead been utilized in addition as a form of identification.

I'd be curious to know what other less car-intensive nations use as ID.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:15 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
turkey sub jr. wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
turkey sub jr. wrote:
just_b wrote:
Yeah, everyone I know doesn't bother chaning this stuff until they have to. Any cop who acts like you're some kind of nut is just a dick.


A dick that's following the "rules."


Lots of people enforce lots of rules every day w/o "harassing" people or being a dick.

The rules are for poor people and minorities, every cop knows that.


Yeah, it's all fun and games making cracks like that until you need 'em.

A traitorous comedian once said, "You never want to see a cop until you own a house." Well, I own a house, and have excellent relations with police officers. But they are dicks in the same proportions as other people, and when they are dicks, they are huge, aching, venous dicks with guns and badges.


I agree. My girlfriend's Stepdad is a former cop and he and I have become pretty good friends over the past couple of years. He knows exactly how I feel about the majority of police officers and even agrees that there are many inept thugs on a power trip who get handed guns and badges. On the other hand, knowing what I know about him I can't imagine that he was anything less than fantastic and fair at his job, because that's just the kind of person he is. So basically, it's going to be like any other job, you'll have some folks who try to make a difference and those who try to take advantage of their position. Sad but true.

_________________
Scared to say what is your passion,
So slag it all,
Bitter's in fashion,
Fear of failure's all you've started,
The jury is in, verdict:
Retarded

Winner of the 2008 STP Song Tournament


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