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 Post subject: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:05 pm 
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Being Unhealthy Could Cost You -- Money
Clarian Health is taking a novel approach to reducing health-care costs: It's penalizing workers for indicators of poor health

By Jena McGregor

Updated: 8:00 p.m. ET Aug 5, 2007
For employees at Clarian Health, feeling the burn of trying to lose weight will take on new meaning.

In late June, the Indianapolis-based hospital system announced that starting in 2009, it will fine employees $10 per paycheck if their body mass index [BMI, a ratio of height to weight that measures body fat] is over 30. If their cholesterol, blood pressure, and glucose levels are too high, they'll be charged $5 for each standard they don't meet. Ditto if they smoke: Starting next year, they'll be charged another $5 in each check.

Clarian has been making headlines for its aggressive and unusual approach to covering escalating health-care costs. Rather than taking the more common step of giving employees incentives for merely participating in its wellness programs, such as joining a smoking cessation group or using a health coach, Clarian is actually measuring outcomes. And unlike most employers, it is penalizing workers for poor health instead of rewarding them for taking healthy steps.

But some employment lawyers and wellness program administrators believe Clarian's approach may not be so unusual in coming years. They see employers, already overwhelmed by rising health-care costs, getting more aggressive in mandating changes in employee behavior. Garry Mathiason, a senior partner at employment law firm Littler Mendelson, says more than 300 companies have requested its assistance on mandatory wellness initiatives since it released a study on the topic in April. "In reality, you only get a certain amount of participation with incentive and encouragement," he says. "The demand for [curtailing health-care costs] is so great that [employers] are willing to take the next step. It's tough love." As BusinessWeek chronicled in February, some outlier companies have even banned tobacco use for its employees altogether [see BusinessWeek.com, 2/26/07, "Get Healthy -- or Else"].

In addition, regulations that became effective July 1 could prompt cautious employers to step off the sidelines. The federal government recently issued final rules on how wellness programs could comply with the nondiscrimination conditions of the Health Insurance Portability & Accountability Act [HIPAA]. While the new regulations have been proposed for years, the final rules provide employers with some sense of security and more clarification on how much they can reward or penalize employees based on specific health results. "When you get into things that involve discrimination, employers aren't very comfortable with the words 'proposed regulation,'" says Jerry Ripperger, director of consumer health for the Principal Financial Group, a financial-services and insurance firm that offers wellness programs for large employers.

The final regulations were a major catalyst for Clarian Health's new program. Steve Wantz, Clarian's senior vice-president of administration and human resources, says his team had been considering their plan for two years, but the new regulations "gave us a lot more confidence." Another change in Indiana state law that allowed employers to offer financial incentives or surcharges to smokers in their health plans was also an impetus. After benchmarking other companies, Clarian, which had already been encouraging employees to join smoking cessation programs and take health risk tests, decided charging employees was more "transparent." Other companies "were providing what they called incentives through credits or discounts toward health premiums," says Wantz. "What we found was what those employers were doing, many times, was raising their premiums and discounting them back."

Sticks and Carrots

At Clarian, employees who have blood pressure that's above 140 over 90, blood glucose levels over 120, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol over 130, or a BMI over 29.9 could be subject to the paycheck deductions. Of the company's 13,000 employees, about 8,000 are enrolled in the company's health plan. The company estimates that as many as 34% of its employees will meet the definition of being obese, while it expects lower levels for other health measures. About 26% are tobacco users. The fines are waived for employees who can provide a doctor's note stating it's not advisable for them to try to meet the benchmark -- employees will be able to submit new notes from their doctors quarterly -- and that they are complying with the proper diet, exercise, and treatment plan.

While Clarian's plan is highly unusual, a few other employers are using the stick approach, too. Western & Southern Financial Group, a Cincinnati-based insurance and financial-services provider, has been issuing employees with high BMIs a surcharge to their premiums since 2001. Depending on their scores, employees are charged a tiered fee of between $15 and $75 a month if their self-reported BMI is high, but can have those fees refunded if their numbers go down. Preventure, a provider of fitness and wellness programs for midsize to large employers, has one client in the manufacturing industry that rewards employees when their BMI falls from their baseline score and charges them more when their number rises. "We haven't seen a lot of companies do it," says Laura Gilligan, director of business development for Preventure, "but I sense it might be a trend."

What's more likely for employers who start measuring health results is that they will provide carrots. In July, UnitedHealthcare began offering a new plan targeted at small businesses called Vital Measures, which combines a high-deductible insurance plan with a supplemental plan that provides discounts for healthy outcomes. Members who choose to participate will receive $500 discounts toward their deductible for each cholesterol, blood pressure, and BMI level they meet, along with refraining from tobacco use or taking a health risk assessment.

Legal Questions

A reward-driven approach will surely be better received by employees, say benefits consultants. "The concept of penalizing for poor health is not well accepted, and a lot of employees would react badly to it," says Bruce Kelley, a consultant in the health-care practice of human resources advisory firm Watson Wyatt Worldwide. Clarian Health admits that its program is aggressive by design, and that employee reaction has been mixed, with much debate on its internal message boards. While some employees were supportive, there's been "the other reaction that this is very personal," says Wantz, with people asking, "'How dare you? This is my personal space.' There's been a lot of questions and confusion."

That's why some benefits consultants and health-care groups think many companies won't adopt a plan like Clarian's anytime soon. "People are not interested in making their employees unhappy," says Helen Darling, president of the National Business Group on Health, a nonprofit that represents large employers' health-care interests. "We're in a war for talent, and there are more than enough work-related challenges to manage people and performance that [penalizing] for something that is so complicated, so personal, so hard to deal with, just isn't the right thing to do at this point."

Others may steer clear of such aggressive plans until questions are ironed out about other legal issues besides HIPAA. Sharon Cohen, Watson Wyatt's group and health-care benefits counsel, says that "any time an employer tries to influence employee behavior and they start to become more aggressive, there are other laws that are implicated," including the Americans with Disabilities Act. She says it's not clear how the requirement of taking a health risk assessment to be eligible for an insurance plan, like Clarian's, would be seen by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission under the ADA. Clarian's Wantz says their plan has been extensively reviewed by attorneys.

Still, Clarian's approach has already attracted interest. Wantz says it has received calls from several local companies, along with other hospital systems, interested in their approach. "The most common response from other employers," he says, "has been 'thank you.'"

Copyright © 2007 The McGraw-Hill Companies Inc. All rights reserved.


As I person who only recently would have been able to avoid a $15 fine every month, I'm not sure what I think about this. I can see where people get pissed, but if a person sees their doctor, and that doctor won't write a note, then this program can only be benefitting them.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:23 pm 
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i don't like the BMI of over 30 being held against you, because BMI is a flawed system; it doesn't take into account different things like body fat %, etc. I think at least an appeal process should be in place.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:43 pm 
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dkfan9 wrote:
i don't like the BMI of over 30 being held against you, because BMI is a flawed system; it doesn't take into account different things like body fat %, etc. I think at least an appeal process should be in place.


BMI doesn't take into account lean muscle mass. Therefore, anyone who regularly lift weights is going to have a high BMI.

You are right. They are not going to be able fine people for having a high BMI without any other factors.

A body fat percentage would be more reasonable.

I don't have a problem with this whole concept, at all. Obesity, hyperlipidemia, smoking all have a direct affect on health insurance costs. For the most part, these conditions are completely avoidable. The people who pay for these costs have the right to ask for reimbursement from people who are willfully apathetic about their own health.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:48 pm 
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"The fines are waived for employees who can provide a doctor's note stating it's not advisable for them to try to meet the benchmark"

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:01 pm 
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I see this as a very logical step in a company providing a health plan. If you are going to abuse the health plan by not taking care of yourself you will be penalized rather than having all users penalized. I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:16 pm 
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tyler wrote:
I see this as a very logical step in a company providing a health plan. If you are going to abuse the health plan by not taking care of yourself you will be penalized rather than having all users penalized. I like it.


i'm with you on this too, minus the one exception that's been mentioned

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:36 pm 
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B wrote:
"The fines are waived for employees who can provide a doctor's note stating it's not advisable for them to try to meet the benchmark"

That's got to be easier to get than a medical marijuana prescription in Santa Cruz.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:38 pm 
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I hope none of you are among the people bitching about AT&T censoring Pearl Jam.....

I also think this should apply to women getting pregnant. The costs associated with pregnancy are very high, and it can be avoided.

I am not one to employ the ole slippery slope argument, but i am not going to encourage additional employer control over peoples lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:41 pm 
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edzeppe wrote:
but i am not going to encourage additional employer control over peoples lives.
It's not applying any control. All it's doing is making people pay for the lifestyle they choose to adopt.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:55 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
Image
Does anyone even think that looks appetizing? Or that it would taste good? That would quite seriously give me an upset stomach. There's about 2 weeks worth of fat in that thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:58 pm 
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i ate a triple whopper(no cheese though) today then came home and ate an ice cream sundae
just thought that seemed applicable to the thread at hand, and the picture above.
and i ate a chicken breast a few minutes ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:29 pm 
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tyler wrote:
edzeppe wrote:
but i am not going to encourage additional employer control over peoples lives.
It's not applying any control. All it's doing is making people pay for the lifestyle they choose to adopt.



Yeah, they pay when their life is shortened or they cant play catch with their son. And a company saying they will fine you if you dont conform, no matter how well you do the job, is attempting to control you- regardless of their motives.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:55 pm 
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edzeppe wrote:
tyler wrote:
edzeppe wrote:
but i am not going to encourage additional employer control over peoples lives.
It's not applying any control. All it's doing is making people pay for the lifestyle they choose to adopt.



Yeah, they pay when their life is shortened or they cant play catch with their son. And a company saying they will fine you if you dont conform, no matter how well you do the job, is attempting to control you- regardless of their motives.
The cost of your lifestyle choices should be borne by you. When in a group health plan the cost of your poor health care choices should be borne by you.

There's no controlling. There's no threat of dismissal. I don't expect the health care plan to pick up the cost of all my good health care choices and pay for my bikes, runners, snow and surf boards, etc... Nor do I expect the health care plan to pay for all my poor health care choices. I'm wondering if you view the company not paying for my surf board as controlling me?


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:00 pm 
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edzeppe wrote:
I also think this should apply to women getting pregnant. The costs associated with pregnancy are very high, and it can be avoided.


Insurance didn't pay for SHIT throughout my wife's pregnancy. I WISH the fine had only been $5 a month.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:46 pm 
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tyler wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Image
Does anyone even think that looks appetizing? Or that it would taste good? That would quite seriously give me an upset stomach. There's about 2 weeks worth of fat in that thing.

That's only a picture of it in an advertisement. The real thing probably has an appropriate amount of beef.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:39 am 
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edzeppe wrote:
tyler wrote:
edzeppe wrote:
but i am not going to encourage additional employer control over peoples lives.
It's not applying any control. All it's doing is making people pay for the lifestyle they choose to adopt.



Yeah, they pay when their life is shortened or they cant play catch with their son. And a company saying they will fine you if you dont conform, no matter how well you do the job, is attempting to control you- regardless of their motives.


It has nothing to do with a company fining you if you don't conform. Health insurance premiums are higher due to unhealthy lifestyle choices. The company either has to foot the bill or get less coverage for the rest of the employees.

Is that fair? All employees get reduced benefits because some people choose to be fat and unhealthy?

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:08 am 
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Gimme Some Skin wrote:
edzeppe wrote:
tyler wrote:
edzeppe wrote:
but i am not going to encourage additional employer control over peoples lives.
It's not applying any control. All it's doing is making people pay for the lifestyle they choose to adopt.



Yeah, they pay when their life is shortened or they cant play catch with their son. And a company saying they will fine you if you dont conform, no matter how well you do the job, is attempting to control you- regardless of their motives.


It has nothing to do with a company fining you if you don't conform. Health insurance premiums are higher due to unhealthy lifestyle choices. The company either has to foot the bill or get less coverage for the rest of the employees.

Is that fair? All employees get reduced benefits because some people choose to be fat and unhealthy?



yep. I will continue to bring up the point of pregnancy. A woman doesnt have to get pregnant, and it is a very expensive period for an insurance company.

If a person is physically capable of doing their job, then they should not be punished for things they do outside of the company, unless of course it has an obvious impact on the view of the company (if you work for domino's, dont get drunk and drive around with your little triangle light on the top of the car, or if you play NFL football, dont host dog fights).

A company should not fine one person or another for reasons like this, especially based on their subjective judgements. Perhaps if the premiums are so high, some of these companies could designate an hour each day (paid, of course) to allow employees to work out at an on site gym. Sure, theyd lose some in payroll, but im sure the difference would be made up in this "healthy" lifestyle.

No matter how you spin it, this type of decision by a company is a company dictating to you how you should spend your time off the clock.


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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:10 pm 
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edzeppe wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
edzeppe wrote:
tyler wrote:
edzeppe wrote:
but i am not going to encourage additional employer control over peoples lives.
It's not applying any control. All it's doing is making people pay for the lifestyle they choose to adopt.



Yeah, they pay when their life is shortened or they cant play catch with their son. And a company saying they will fine you if you dont conform, no matter how well you do the job, is attempting to control you- regardless of their motives.


It has nothing to do with a company fining you if you don't conform. Health insurance premiums are higher due to unhealthy lifestyle choices. The company either has to foot the bill or get less coverage for the rest of the employees.

Is that fair? All employees get reduced benefits because some people choose to be fat and unhealthy?



yep. I will continue to bring up the point of pregnancy. A woman doesnt have to get pregnant, and it is a very expensive period for an insurance company.

If a person is physically capable of doing their job, then they should not be punished for things they do outside of the company, unless of course it has an obvious impact on the view of the company (if you work for domino's, dont get drunk and drive around with your little triangle light on the top of the car, or if you play NFL football, dont host dog fights).

A company should not fine one person or another for reasons like this, especially based on their subjective judgements. Perhaps if the premiums are so high, some of these companies could designate an hour each day (paid, of course) to allow employees to work out at an on site gym. Sure, theyd lose some in payroll, but im sure the difference would be made up in this "healthy" lifestyle.

No matter how you spin it, this type of decision by a company is a company dictating to you how you should spend your time off the clock.


It has nothing to do with the company giving a shit about what you do off the clock. It's about them offering you healthcare benefits that you flush down the toilet by not taking care of yourself. The pregnancy comparison isn't valid. Pregnancy is not unhealthy. It is a nine month condition. Obesity, hyperlipidemia, hypertension, emphesema, Type II diabetes are chronic conditions. They are a burden on the healthcare system throughout the entire lives of the person that has them.

To be fair, maybe the company should say "Here are the terms of our health insurance policy. If you don't meet these terms, you have to pay such and such more per pay period. If you don't want our health insurance policy, you don't have to take it and you'll get such and such amount per pay period that we save"

Would that be okay? Then the employee could pay for his own benefits. The amount given by the employer would not be enough to pay for full medical coverage, obviously. Group health insurance is cheaper than individual. But at least the employee would be able to be a fat slob if they liked.

Either way you look at it, people that CHOOSE to be unhealthy should have to pay more for health insurance than those who don't. It is ridiculous for healthy people to have to pay higher premiums to cover the healthcare costs of those who live unhealthy lifestyles. You can do whatever you want with your life, until i start having to foot the bill for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Dear Fatty, Pay Up! Love, Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:39 pm 
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Gimme Some Skin wrote:

It has nothing to do with the company giving a shit about what you do off the clock. It's about them offering you healthcare benefits that you flush down the toilet by not taking care of yourself. The pregnancy comparison isn't valid. Pregnancy is not unhealthy. It is a nine month condition. Obesity, hyperlipidemia, hypertension, emphesema, Type II diabetes are chronic conditions. They are a burden on the healthcare system throughout the entire lives of the person that has them.

To be fair, maybe the company should say "Here are the terms of our health insurance policy. If you don't meet these terms, you have to pay such and such more per pay period. If you don't want our health insurance policy, you don't have to take it and you'll get such and such amount per pay period that we save"

Would that be okay? Then the employee could pay for his own benefits. The amount given by the employer would not be enough to pay for full medical coverage, obviously. Group health insurance is cheaper than individual. But at least the employee would be able to be a fat slob if they liked.

Either way you look at it, people that CHOOSE to be unhealthy should have to pay more for health insurance than those who don't. It is ridiculous for healthy people to have to pay higher premiums to cover the healthcare costs of those who live unhealthy lifestyles. You can do whatever you want with your life, until i start having to foot the bill for it.


You keep saying they arent trying to dictate their life... then follow it up by the phrase "unhealthy lifestyle." Unless they are smoking 2 packs a day on the clock, or eating 14 big macs on the clock, then it IS their free time activities they are being fined for.

I think maybe a better solution is to raise the copays for chronic conditions if someone doesnt meet the criteria, if those chronic conditions are caused by an "unhealthy lifestyle." Why is it fair to make a smoker pay more for insurance, if they dont have any illness caused by it? Why is it fair to make a fat guy pay more for insurance if they are totally healthy... just fat. Being fat and smoking doesnt mean you are 100% going to get sick... it just increases your risk factors.... in fact, so does sitting in the sun.. so maybe they should take a baseline reading of your skin tone in the dead of winter, and then check you out in the middle of august to make sure you havent spent too much time in the sun- which is of course a risk for costly skin cancer. Maybe if you smoke and have a family history of lung cancer, your premiums should be a little higher than someone who just smokes a pack a month at bars and concerts..... When you start getting into personal choices off the clock, there are way too many variables to fairly execute a policy like this.

Like i said earlier... I am not a fan of the slippery slope arguments, but this case may call for one. If we support invasion into home lives, its not going to end with just smokers and fat people. Then its going to jump into "well you play recreational hockey, so your dental care costs increase." or "pregnancy is expensive, you already have 2 children- so we wont cover you having a 3rd." or "you've been on anti-depressents in the past... if you dont cheer up on your own, your premium will increase."

I think this is just a quick, easy, half assed temporary "solution" that doesnt address any of the real concerns that exist in the health care system. The real "burden" on the health care system isnt fat people, or smokers, or pregnant folk- its a system where medical facilities can make up whatever price they want for services rendered- beyond all reasonable thought- that insurance pays and passes it on to everyone.


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