to take a break from election bullshit I thought I'd post something of a theory I've been working on, tell me what you think.

There are certain laws in the universe that we know to be true. Chemical reactions occur based on known equations. For instance when 2 Hydrogen and an Oxygen molecule come together we have water. Another one would be that for every action we have an equal and opposite reaction. By and large, physics dictates the interaction of two pieces of matter. We can say that if known object A collides with known object B at angle X we will have a certain known outcome.

Basically what I'm getting at is that on a fundamental level, we can break down everything to interactions between molecules. These molecules and forces are subject to the laws of physics. In any given system if we knew all of the variables we could figure out the outcome before it occurs. If all this is true, then free will is just a construct of our imagination. It's not that we don't know what will happen, it's just that we do not know all of the variables and all of the equations to figure it out.

We fool ourselves into believing that every minute we have a choice, this is not the case. Right now I think I have a choice between writing this or going outside. However there is only one thing that is going to happen and that's the way it was meant to happen. It's not the right thing or wrong thing, it just IS. I'll try and explain this in a simplistic manner: Earlier today I ate an egg which was digested by my stomach giving me energy to run my brain which in turn "made" me come to the computer and type this out. The notion that at some point I had a choice in the matter is just an illusion. It was all an extremely complex series of chemical and physical reactions that really could only produce one result...the result that occurred.

so does this make any sense?

Although we are binded by the laws of nature, and sometimes the laws of man, I think we have free will.

I think this because I have an egotistical desire to not be a puppet on a string.

Of course, I can't prove that everything I did today since I woke up was the result of my free will, but neither can you prove that it was the result of fate.

And so the debate continues...

It makes sense to me... and I've come to the same conclusion before.. but I don't really know what I think about it now.

So you are saying that if you would have eaten anything but the egg you would have used you brain in a different way and decided not to type this stuff on the computer to this forum? You are justifying freewill by what you said and did. You made the decisions it sure wasn't planned out from the beginning of time that on this day at this time you were going to type on this computer and post this message. You chose to do the things you did today right after your eyes opened in the morning.

I think what he's saying is that those 'decisions' you make about what to eat, or say, or do... aren't really decisions like they may seem to us. They are just the logical conclusions of an infinite number of variables (our prior thoughts, conversations, experiences).

A fun thread.

There are varying degrees of choice, but "free" will, just as reality, is an illusion of perception.

A person obviously chooses to eat an egg; but is the choice free? What were the paramiters of the decision? Was the egg the only source of food available? If it was, one could still say that a person may freely choose not to eat; but that, though a choice, is not free. It is still bound by the paramiters of "egg or not egg; eat or not eat." Any attempt to free up that decision would be either impossible (I choose fish), or a non sequitur (there's only one egg in the refrigerator? Well, then, I guess my favorite color is green).

actually I think I can...although i wouldn't call it fate. Fate has a connotation. Things just ARE, they're not good or bad.

Everything that happened since you woke up happened that way because that was the only way it was going to turn out. You think there was certain choices you made to lead to where you are but that's just an illusion. There's only one way things happen, and that's the way the happen.

exactly. everything you do is a product of what's going on in your body. Since you can't change what has happened to you why do you think you can change what is going to happen to you?

Everything you did in your life leads up to what you are GOING to do. You can't change the past so why can do you believe you can change the future?

You can change the future. If you are at a dead end job and you better yourself through schooling and get a job that earns you more money. You have just changed what will be the future.

So you have a predetermined day for death the day you are born? And your whole life is just a play being acted out waiting for that airplane to crash with the other 138 people who were destined to die that day?

heh, believe it or not this same debate caused a huge, unfriendly argument b/w a friend of mine with basically the same ideas as gogol, and some other friends of mine. It was nassssssty and embarassing..

Anyway I don't buy into the "no free will" stuff. I don't think there's complete autonomy either, but there most definitely has to be a mix b/w the two extremes. Reduction of everything to complete biological determinism is kind of a dangerous game anyway.

The moment something happens, it becomes the only thing that could have happened. If you die in a plane crash, you were "destined" to die in that plane crash.

What if you chose not to fly that day? Then it was your destiny to not die in that plane crash. Gogol put it perfectly when he wrote "there's only one way things happen, and that's the way they happen."

From our perspective, the future does not exist; and you cannot change what does not exist.

metaphysics will ruin you all

I agree - reduction to that level is something we simply are not capable of doing.
Even if an outcome or choice is inevitable, it cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. The tools used for prediction, be they minds or machines, are incomplete because of the incomplete nature of prediction. If a prediction was complete, it would cease to be a prediction and become a fact.

Sorry but I can only agree a little bit with this whole thing. I refuse to believe that everything I do is a predetermined nonchoice from the time I take my first breath after the cord has been cut. Of course things happen because they happen, that is only because it is the now of the situation. If I walk up to the airport on that day that the plane crashes and get a bad feeling and decide to waste my 800 bucks by saying I am not stepping on the plane. I made the decision to waste my money. And the other suckers die. I made that choice. Did it happen now? Yes. Did I make a decision that was my free will? Yes. Did I change the course of my future? Yes. And the future of everybody who knows me.

E/F you are still thinking that you made a choice not to go on the plane. You may think you made that choice but in reality, that was the way it was going to happen. If we were able to know the infinite number of variables and all of the equations that lead to our every moment, we could predict the future. In hindsight (after the plane crashes) you would think back and say "Well it was my gut feeling that made me not get on that plane, what a great choice" However, there was a set of factors that lead you to not get on the plane, it had nothing to do with your choice. What you're doing is giving yourself a type of foretelling in the guise of a bad feeling.

We like to delude ourselves into thinking we have a choice in these matters but we don't. There really is only a given set of outcomes for any scenario. We can reason that some are more likely than others but ultimately only one is going to occur and that outcome is a result of everything leading to it. Therefore, had you known all of the events preceding and their complex relationships, theoretically you could see the future.

I agree that it is impossible for us to live our lives as if we don't have any choices. It would be impossible to do because as humans we assign events feelings; either good or bad. Really nothing is good or bad, it just is what happened.

E/F your example about decding to change your life with education and get a better job is a good example. If you get up tomorrow and "decide" to change your life, you really haven't changed your future, that was the way it was going to be because that's the way it will turn out.

preach!

I have a three-eyed, green, mongahelahoodle on my shoulder right now.

Prove that it is not there.

I think our past (feelings, thoughts and experiences) give us certain tendencies is certain situations, but the outcome is never set in stone. While it's not true free will (our options are usually limited), but at some point in every situation we had a choice to make.

But you can create what does not exist by choices that in turn cause change.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe it's so. Everything we do is a choice. Also, what about chaos theory?