Ahhh, the first time poster. I've lurked around here for about six months, mainly to get Pearl Jam info, but this forum always piques my interest. I have never joined simply because of how incredibly left wing this site is, and how you systematically drive out right wingers. But tonight is just crazy. There is absolutely no sense of sanity coming from most of the left wingers.

Women are gonna lose their rights? America is going down the shitter? ALL IS LOST! LETS MOVE TO CANADA! DAMN YOU CONSERVATIVES FOR PASSING MARRAIGE LAWS!

What I don't understand is how you folk are so against democracy when it's not in your favor. Why can't you just come to grips with the simple fact that America is dictated by the majority, and the majority of America is conservative and religious. YOU ARE THE MINORITY! How would you guys feel if Kerry won the election, and we were out there saying that Kerry needed to pander to the rights needs and wants. That's not how the system works.

I just can't get over all the utter crap posted tonight.

- Women's Rights and Roe vs. Wade: You're all afraid about new judges. Newsflash, the Republicans and conservatives of America dominated this election in almost all aspects. Why shouldn't we be able to pick the judges we want? Why should OUR judges be what YOU want.

Newsflash, Roe vs. Wade exists because of left wing judge appointees. You all do know that Roe vs. Wade is unconstitutional right? It is not the Supreme Courts job to legislate, it is their job to interpret the constitution. The only way that your side was able to legislate such a law was through stacking the court in your favor, when you had the power. That's cool. Now we have the power. Why can't we run this nation like it is supposed to be run and how we see fit? If we get our judges like we deserve by the mandate of the majority of the people, legalized abortion will NOT dissappear from America. So stop freakin' whining. Yes, Roe vs. Wade will be, or probably be overturned, but only because the result from the case is unconstitutional. Abortion will return to the way it used to be. It will become similar to the gay marraige issue. The legality of abortion will rest on the states, like it should. The constitution dictates that the US government cannot legislate over the states. Why is that bad? Why can't you guys live in states where abortion exists, and I live in Tennessee or North Carolina where it is illegal? Why does that turn you people off so bad? Why should your views and opinions be FORCED upon the majority that DOESN'T WANT ABORTION!

Someone mentioned history tonight, and how America is doomed to implode because of our power and arrogance, and that history dictates that it will happen. I'm sorry, but that is hardly the case. You guys are equating present day America bringing free elections to oppressed countries at miniscule cost of 20,000 lives. We FREED 50,000,000 people. You are equating that to regimes such as the Japanese Empire, and Hitler. You are comparing what we have done to Hitler systematically liquidating entire segments of Europes population, including millions of Jews. Hell, 90% of the Jews in Holland were killed in the death camps. This is what you are basing your theories on, arogant empires of the past. How can you compare America today, to the great empires of the past? The British Empire didn't fall because of bringing freedom to other nations, it crumbled because people demanded freedom. Napolean's empire didn't fall from liberating other nations, neither did the Greeks or Romans. America is not even close to imploding, nor exhibits any of the characteristics of past doomed empires. What's so funny is that you all tell us conservatives to open a history book, when you are the ones in dire need of some education. In particular the transition from WWI to WWII.

"The Bush admin. tries to tell us that the way to prevent another 9/11 is to 'fight back' and have a 'war on terrorism'. It is so illogical."

The Chamberlain admin. tried to tell the world that the way to prevent another world war was through peace talks, and pandering to Adolf Hitler on the side. That is proven to be illogical. If the allies had remained steadfast and upheld the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler would have never even been a threat. I don't care how mean it was, I don't care how miserable the Germans were, I don't care if hundreds of thousands of Germans starved. The purpose of the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations was to prevent Germany from becoming a war machine, and to preserve World Peace through whatever means necessary. Left wingers like Neville Chamberlain were the reason over 100,000,000 people lost their lives in WWII. Because you think that fighting despots is illogical. WWI, WWII, and 9-11 should all serve as perfect examples of how the aggressive use of force is the only logical way to preserve what all of us hold so dear. What is illogical is try and have peace talks with these people and hold summits. They will try and kill us simply for supporting Israel. They've tried attacking France, even though they take the Arabs side time and time again. There are 14 global conflicts involving Islamic extremism on the globe that have nothing to with the Jews. Islamic extremism is clear and present danger, and history has proven time and time again that the only thing that will stop it is to destroy them. On top of that, we will soon have two Islamic democracies in the mideast. In four years, Bush will look like a genious. In ten years, he will be considered a great president, and you need look no farther than the internal issues taking place in Saudi Arabia and Iran to figure out why. Your problem is that you are hung up on WE WANT IT NOW. Look at the problems we faced in Germany following WWII (Berlin Wall, Marshall Plan, terrorist attacks that lasted for years). It took us five years to bring stability and elections to Germany, and it wasn't a religiously motivated enemy. These things take time. And since all of you are so concerned about the loss of life in bringing 50 million people freedom and how that is so wrong, open your history book and see how many hundreds of thousands of people died under Saddam thanks to the oil for aid program and his existance as a leader. Why don't you guys visit just ONE civil war battlefield and see how many thousands of people died in just ONE day of battle to preserve our union. You are all concerned about Bush taking your rights away...look at what your sacred hero FDR did in WWII to preserve freedom. Look at what Lincoln did during the Civil War to preserve the union. Hell, why don't you look at what Thomas Jefferson did when he won election in 1800. I'm sorry, but you guys need to open the history books, not us conservatives.

"We are losing respect world wide and creating enemies left and right. We are supporting dictators around the world. We have a weak defense. We have a divided country like never before. Our economy and social structure are decaying rapidly."

Who cares if we are losing respect world wide, seriously. Does the Declaration of Independece mean anything to the liberals here? The rest of the world wants us to subbortinate our power and wealth to them and the United Nations. Who's respect are we losing? France? Germany? China? Who cares about those nations. Let me guess, France and Germany have stronger defenses than we do right? France and Germany were siding with Saddam Hussein and Irag. They were siding with a man who was funding terrorism against the Jewish people. And you seek to keep these men as allies? We have more allies in this war than we did in WWII and the first Gulf War. The only reason we didn't have UN approval for GWII was because France and Germany were in bed with Saddam Hussein. If we have a weak defense, I'd like to know who's is stronger. And who cares if our nation is divided. And it's not divided like never before, again, open a history book.

How is the economy decaying rapidly? Do you live in a box? Our GDP is growing far beyond that rate needed for sustained solid growth at 3.7% percent in the last quarter. Unemployment is lower than when Clinton ran for re-election. Poverty is lower than when Clinton ran for re-election. Bush's tax rebates dug us out a recession that Clinton handed Bush in 2000 (economy began tanking in March of 2000, some even say January of 2000). Then his tax cuts dug us out of the shortest and smallest recession in our nations history. How fast we really forget history when we are leftists. Or is that we just like to say things that float our boat when they become convenient.

No offense, but the liberals in this community really need to re-evaluate just exactly what they stand for and more importantly...why. What on earth lies in those history books you all talk about that makes you believe what you believe? Because nothing in my history or economics books supports a damn thing, not one damn thing, that you guys support.

I'm not attacking anyone, or insulting anyone, I'm just frustrated and confused as to how irrational and melodramatic the leftists on this forum are, and utterly confused as to what drives your ideologies. After all, ya'll think that the way someone speaks is far more important than his actions and record. Funny how no one hear said anything about Kerry saying OG-BYN, but it's internets internets internets and Bush is stupid.

Good night.

That was a long fucking post. I'd reply but I'm too damn tired now.

Take what you just said, and change everything to liberal viewpoints, and keep the "why shouldn't you like what WE want to do" tone.

Now how would you feel about that?

That's why it makes people so angry.

It's not a situation like "is murder bad?" where close to 100% would say yes. It's a situation like "do you like pepsi or coke?" and you're telling all of the Pepsi drinkers that they should be fine with Coke because it narrowly won in a taste test. Now take this situation and magnify its importance by a million times. And you don't expect people to get upset?

it wouldn't be so bad if some of the things you mentioned were correct. you see the problem is people like yourself are all over those red states, and voting because they think the economy is good, dead Iraqi's are good, you know little things like that. Easy for you to say 20,000 lives are a small cost. Tell that to the mom who lost her son looking for WMD's or the Iraqi dad who burried his daughter killed by a smart bomb. You're comparison to WWII helps. I mean they're so similar. Saddam and Hitler, how could anyone not see it? One a brutal man hell bent on controlling the world and wiping out an entire race, the other a dude so dillusional he thought he had WMD's. Oh yeah, he also only controlled 1/3 of his country while Hitler had over a 1/3 of Europe. But good comparison.

It's cool man, you won today be happy and don't worry about what we have to say. Little things like equal rights aren't that big of a deal. We should throw out things like science and teach stuff like creationism. Fags don't deserve equal rights either. It's always good to see we're headed in the right direction

The country is bitterly divided, and one side, who happens to really dislike the other half, just lost.

It's always tough when the thing you believe in comes back to bite you in the arse. Emotions are running high, so what you're seeing is a group of passionate people venting out their frustrations. Try to understand where they're coming from.

These are not normal circumstances. We ask everyone to be nice, to be a bit more conciliatory, but I do recognise that emotions are running high. I was like them only a month ago.

Gogol, how is the economy not good? Because the democratically run northeast is economically devestated by taxation? You know what you need to do. You need to take a trip to Nashville, or Charlotte, or Atlanta or Houston, and see just exactly how the economy really is doing. Just because cities like Detroit, Buffalo, and Cleveland are dying and losing manufacturing jobs out the wazoo doesn't make the economy bad. 5.3% unemployment is fantastic. 3.7% GDP growth is awesome. You have NO evidence that the economy is bad whatsoever. The problems exist in states run by Democrats (Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan.) States that have governements which refuse to acknowledge that our economy is dynamic.

I never said the loss of Iraqi lives was good. It's tragic and sad. But again, open your history book and show me one war where such a number of people have died for freedom. You won't find it, just as you can't find any economic indicator that the economy sucks. But good luck with that.

I just buried a friend who died in Iraq, so don't even try to pull that "tell a mom who's son died looking for WMD's." Twenty guys from my reserve unit served in OIF, half of my company is deployed, and I get activated on January 2nd to do my part. So don't even try to pull that. See, I see it as this. I would rather die in Africa in February with a flak jacket, and a kevlar on, with an M16 in my hand, able to defend myself, than watch thousands of innocent people die in skyscrapers like sheep. Why don't you go tell a relative of a 9-11 victim that we shouldn't be going after terrorists. Or talk to an Israeli Jew on the subject.

Saddam and Hitler, in many ways were very very similar. Both could be considered secular leaders. Both were determined to expand their empires. Both sought deadly weapons. Both sought to exterminate the Jews. The only difference is that European Leftists and American Isolationists allowed Hitler to come to power and build his military, and George Bush took a stand before Saddam become a monstrous threat with the ability to kill millions of people. It's funny, your description of Hitler describes Saddam. Are you for a moment insinuating that Hitler wasn't mad in wanting to exterminate the Jews? And you didn't read your Deufler report. If you had, you would understand that Saddam was very calculated and methodical in his actions prior to the war. You know, bribing the French and Germans to undermine the United Nations Security Council and all. Oh, and I find it amusing that you can't open your history book to realize that we needed to stop Saddam before he controlled a third of the middle east, like Hitler controlled not a third, but almost the entirety of Europe.

You can find your equal rights all over the place. California, Oregon, New York, Massacheusettes. No one ever said we should teach creationism or suggested it. Nobody wants to throw out technology, we just see that the government has no place in taking our tax dollars to fund it. Nobody is stopping "fags" from cohabitating, or loving one another, or being gay.

And stop this "right direction" crap. In the majorities opinion, we are headed in the right direction. Now go read your constitution before you reply again.

Keep in mind: it's a very, very, very narrow majority.

Littlewing you and I could go back and forth forever on this and not get anywhere. I can't prove how much the economy sucks and you can't ever prove to me it's doing well. If you think it has anything to do with Democratic states you kidding yourself. This is what we call a jobless recovery. Basically they're squeezing more out of less people. Still more have stopped looking for work. Also new jobs created are those stellar ones like at Denny's and Applebee's. Not many people want those.

2 months ago a friend of mine also was killed in Iraq. Hadn't seen him since college but he's gone none the less. I'm not willing to accept his death for a joke a president makes at a press core dinner. If you can accept the WMD thing, go ahead I never will. I trusted the president when he said the threat was a mushroom cloud. He lied so FUCK HIM. the rest is just bullshit justification on your part, if it makes you feel better then whatever floats your boat.

hey we'll see in about 6 months won't we. By the way, how many more people died today in Iraq? 3? 4? Any more taken hostage? It's getting better though I'm sure. Make sure bin Laden's happy wherever he is though, we might want to get him one of these days.

I've read the constitution, you might want to try the Bill of Rights, you've forgotten about that one lately.

so expecting to people to control their emotions is asking too much?

it is possible to express an opinion with out resorting to name calling........







I'm out like the fat kid in dodge ball

Where in the constitution does it say that people should automatically have the job that they want? I mean, I chose to be a reservist, but I'm a cook right now while I'm finishing up my degree. Do you think I want to cook? Of course not? Nobody is entitled anything. It is about us. If you want it, go get it, nobody is stopping you.

If people don't want to work at Applebees and Denny's, then they should do what I'm doing. They should go to college, or acquire a skill that will allow them to do what they want to do. Jobs at Applebees and Denny's are not designed for lifelong jobs. Those are unskilled jobs for teenagers and people like me working through college. If you're 35 and working at Denny's (unless you really want to) then you have some serious issues. There is nothing stopping anyone in America from getting out of a job like Denny's.

Again, you didn't read your Deufler report. Go read it, all of it. Read David Kays entire interm report while you are at it. The funny thing is, the UN, David Kay, and Deufler all believe and reported that the weapons were smuggled out of Iraq prior to the war. The problem is, is that Kay and Deufler were not allowed to report this. Their job was to find weapons in Iraq, period.

3 or four people died in Iraq today? Here is your assignment while I'm sleeping and at work tomorrow. Find out how many people died in Sharpsburg, Maryland, September 17th 1862.

What makes you think OBL is happy? If I was OBL, I'd be pretty pissed off right now.

I didn't read any of that

after much thought. It's just apparent to me you're bitter about your lot. I'm sorry your job sucks and you don't like what you're doing. I'll think of you tomorrow cruising around in my company car tomorrow


g'night

I really like how you think

i'm not gonna lie. that was too damn long to read. it's a message board not a novel. but anyway, I'm not pro- bush. I'll say that after today, I'm so much pissed off with the results as I am the really low voter turn out in young people. why does that always happen? cause you know young people are the first ones to complain....I'm in the age bracket...


I guess that's all i wanted to say here. I dont plan on getting into all the other stuff I feel right now. it's too much of a free for all here to do that and it's all been said already.

Time and time again, and history has proven, that conservative values are a failure. Look at the puritans, the victorian era. We may be at the beginning of an age that is one day viewed like that.

Also, loved the classic comparison of terrorism, which has killed thousands of people in several decades, to Hitler, who killed 6 million in 3 years. I've also heard of it compared to Communism, and lets not forget Stalin killed 20 million. Very nice

I think many right-wingers fail to view outside of given cultural or ethical values. Sure, they may "stand" for things, but they are for the most part pretty blind.

Take my Hitler example....had Hitler been in power for 250 years, it would be perfectly acceptable for the people living in a fascist run society to kill Jews. There would be nothing wrong with, and it would be taught to school children. Is this evil? Sure, but what exactly is evil? Our society teaches us that we are just, yet in the last 40 years, we assassinate leaders and support tyrants simply because they don't favor us for the time being, and the poor people of these countries suffer. They are human beings entitled to life just as much as you, or I. Its a vicious cycle. Its the same cycle that was responsible for Bin Laden, and it will end up killing the world in the end. Humanity has lived for nearly 3 million years, so why should we subscribe to certain beliefs of right and wrong? The people in power today, and that speaks for all global leaders, be they Bush, Blair, Bin Laden, or even Kerry had he been elected, are only basing their values on religions that have been around for several thousand, and in Islams case, not even two thousand.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. It is still a "theory" but I think its a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Awesome post dude. Right on.

Yeah, too long. I read the first few sentences and got your point. The minority should not remain silent as well as the majority. This is America and it's good to bitch!

I concur. Great Post. I'm Framing that one and putting it on the wall beside my computer.

great post. you are so RIGHT!

Littlewing, you mention the Constitution when defending your position on abortion.

The right to life isn't mentioned in the Constitution. The right to privacy is. That's what Roe v. Wade is based on... the right of a woman's privacy over her body.

Anyway, we could argue about the consitutionality of Roe v. Wade, but aren't you curious why we launched a war against Iraq without Congress declaring war, which is what the Constitution requires?