Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez accused Mexican leader Vicente Fox of being a "puppy" of President Bush and said: "Don't mess with me, sir." Fox shot back on Monday that "we have dignity in this country" and demanded an apology. Now the two nations are withdrawing their ambassadors.
The severing of diplomatic relations came after a week of verbal sparring that highlighted Latin America's differences over free trade and relations with the United States. The conservative Fox tends to side with Washington on many issues, while Chavez, a socialist and populist, has been one of the hemisphere's strongest critics of Bush.
Venezuela's president has repeatedly accused Fox of being a "puppy" of American interests and of disrespecting him after the pair took opposing positions during this month's Summit of the Americas.
On Sunday, Chavez used his weekly radio and TV show to warn Fox: "Don't mess with me, sir, because you'll get stung."
Fox retorted in an interview with CNN: "Other countries might accept (Chavez's) wording and the way he attacks everybody and he attacks institutions. We are not willing to do that in Mexico."
Venezuela called its ambassador home Monday rather than apologize for the remark, and Mexico responded by recalling its own envoy to Venezuela.
Fox said his government was mulling its next move.
"We can't allow people to offend our country," he told CNN en Espanol.
Venezuelan Ambassador to Mexico Vladimir Villegas said he would fly to his homeland aboard a commercial flight Monday night.
"The whole world knows that this didn't begin on the Venezuelan side," Villegas said.
When asked what the driving issue was behind the flap, he said "look a little bit north" _ a reference to the United States.
Tensions between Fox and Chavez spilled over after the summit in Argentina, where Fox defended a U.S.-backed proposal for a Free Trade Area of the Americas. Chavez proclaimed the idea dead.
They reached a breaking point late Sunday, when Mexico issued a statement saying Chavez's latest barb "strikes at the dignity of the Mexican people and government."
Early Monday, Fox's spokesman, Ruben Aguilar, said Mexico would expel the ambassador if Venezuela didn't apologize by midnight.
Hours later in Venezuela, Foreign Secretary Ali Rodriguez said his country would not accept Mexico's demands.
Venezuela "rejects as an unjustified attack the ultimatum issued by the government of Mexico," Rodriguez said. "This situation is entirely the responsibility of President Fox."
Fox responded by saying he was going to continue to fight for free trade.
"In this issue we have to avoid personalities and characterizations," he told CNN en Espanol. "This is not about Mr. Chavez. This is not about Mr. Fox. It's about two nations."
Aguilar said withdrawing ambassadors wouldn't mean severing ties completely with Venezuela because business and cultural relations would remain intact. The Economy Department released a statement Monday afternoon detailing trade ties between the two oil-rich nations.
Mexican Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez characterized Chavez's latest comments as "truly infuriating."
But he said despite the current conflict, "the historical friendship between our country and the nation of Venezuela continues unaltered."
Also Monday, Mexican prosecutors announced a large upswing in heroin shipments entering Mexico from Venezuela, and suggested that corrupt Venezuelan airport workers may be letting the drugs through. The prosecutors denied the announcement was related to the diplomatic dispute.
Aguilar backed away from insisting on an apology for Chavez's remarks in order to re-establish diplomatic relations, saying Venezuela could win over Mexico with conciliatory gestures and statements.
But Fox said in a subsequent interview with CNN that an apology was necessary.
"Of course, my minister of foreign relations and most of the people in Mexico are demanding that apology because (Chavez) used very strong words," Fox said. When asked why Mexico recalled its ambassador to Venezuela, he replied "because we have dignity."
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Chavez is hilarious. He's like the Terrell Owens of politics.
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:10 am Posts: 662 Location: Arvada, CO Gender: Male
here is another perspective that isn't directly out of Mexico City
Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro lay a trap for Mexico
By John Sweeney
Miami, November 14 – Mexico’s Foreign Ministry has confirmed it will recall its Ambassador from Venezuela and request that Venezuela’s Ambassador to Mexico return to Caracas immediately if “the government and people of Mexico” do not receive a formal apology from “the very highest levels” of the Venezuelan government before midnight on November 14. Since last week President Hugo Chavez has called Fox “a puppy of the empire,” and also threatened Fox personally. “Do not mess with me,” Chavez told the Mexican president on November 13 in a television broadcast that was beamed by satellite via Telesur to all of Latin America. Now the Fox government wants a personal written apology from Chavez.
Mexico’s government is about to fall into a geopolitical trap laid by Chavez, Cuban President Fidel Castro and Cuban Foreign Minister Ricardo Alarcon, who is an experienced fabricator of international diplomatic incidents. Chavez and Castro want Fox to freeze, or better yet break off relations with Venezuela. A formal diplomatic break between Venezuela and Mexico would open a strategic trapdoor through which the Chavez/Castro axis likely would seek to destabilize Mexico politically over the coming presidential election year in that country.
This was not an ad hoc rhetorical attack by Chavez, who chose his words carefully to inflict the maximum possible insult and humiliation. From a Mexican perspective, calling President Fox “a puppy of the empire” was an extraordinarily vile and personal insult. The Mexican people are fiercely nationalist and independent, and proud of their rich cultural heritage.
Chavez created the confrontation with Fox with a blueprint very similar to what Castro and Alarcon employed in March 2004 at the Special Summit of the Americas in Monterrey. The meeting at Monterrey was a Fox initiative that sought to bring together President Bush and the heads of state of Latin America and the Caribbean in what ultimately proved a futile effort to improve sagging relations between Washington and the region. Castro was invited to that event by Fox, but the Cuban leader was also asked to leave Monterrey before President Bush arrived. The request insulted and enraged Castro.
The Cuban leader returned to Havana and promptly released tape recordings of telephone conversations between Castro and Fox in which Mexico’s president had explicitly asked Castro to leave Monterrey before the arrival of Bush. The Fox government had previously denied reports that the U.S. government had pressured Fox to ask Castro to leave, and Castro’s disclosure of the taped conversation with Fox was hugely embarrassing for the Mexican president and his then-Foreign Minister Carlos Castaneda.
Now Chavez has employed a similar strategy against Fox. Chavez violated an explicit rule of international diplomacy and protocol related to the FTAA negotiating process by broadcasting edited snippets of the heated discussions between the region’s heads of state behind closed doors in Mar del Plata. Chavez broadcast on Telesur footage of Bush, Fox and Canada’s prime minister arguing strongly for the inclusion of the FTAA in the text of the final document. Chavez also broadcast footage of himself, Argentine President Nestor Kirchner and Uruguayan President Tabare Vasquez arguing against any mention of the FTAA in the final declaration.
Chavez won’t apologize. Venezuelan Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel and Foreign Minister Ali Rodriguez Araque both have said that Chavez’s description of Fox as “a puppy of the empire” is justified. In effect, Fox asked for it by siding with the United States at the November 4-5 Summit of the Americas in Mar del Plata, according to both Rangel and Rodriguez.
If the Fox government recalls its ambassador from Caracas and orders the Venezuelan ambassador to depart Mexico immediately, Chavez likely will ratchet up the confrontation with Fox, a lame duck president who is unpopular with many Mexicans.
There are many ways that the Chavez/Castro axis can stoke political turmoil in Mexico over the coming electoral year.
For instance, Chavez could continue provoking the Fox government systematically, including frequent (daily) attacks against Fox in his speeches and television broadcasts like he now attacks President Bush and the U.S. government. Chavez would seek to humiliate Fox and goad him into responding publicly in order to create tit-for-tat exchanges that subsequently would be televised hemispherically via Telesur (aka Telechavez), which now broadcasts 24 hours a day by satellite from Canada to Tierra del Fuego, the Iberian Peninsula, western Europe and much of eastern Europe.
The Chavez/Castro axis also could increase its financial and political engagement with radical leftist groups in Mexico through gateways like the Bolivarian Congress of Peoples. Mexico has millions of indigenous citizens living in abject poverty, excluded from mainstream Mexican society. Mexico also has armed militant groups in Chiapas, Guerrero, Oaxaca and other southern states. Mexico’s government is also currently engaged in a nearly four-year-old power struggle between rival drug cartels for control of the North American drug trafficking industry. Over 1,000 people have been killed in Mexico’s drug wars since the start of 2005, and the Fox government has been unable to contain the violence. Mexico is simmering with economic exclusion, social resentment, armed militants and organized criminal enterprises with a direct economic stake in stoking instability. Some exogenous clandestine interventionism, like Bolivia and Ecuador have experienced increasingly since 2000, could stir things up in Mexico.
A Mexico in a state of incremental instability has direct geopolitical implications for the national security of the United States. This is the real objective of Chavez’s extraordinarily personal attack against Fox. If Mexico destabilizes politically, the U.S. government’s focus in Latin America would shift decisively to Mexico, where an unstable political environment or unfriendly government would affect sensitive bilateral economic, migration and security issues that concern Washington very much.
Chavez didn’t come up with this strategy by himself. Interestingly, Venezuela’s Foreign Minister appears to be out of the loop. Rodriguez spent four days negotiating with his Mexican counterpart to smooth things out, and gave assurances on November 13 that good relations between Venezuela and Mexico are very important. And then Chavez threatened Fox personally. If Rodriguez was not involved in helping Chavez strategize his attack against Fox, who was? Cuban Foreign Minister Alarcon was in Argentina during the summit in Mar del Plata.
Hugo and Fidel are really not unlike their counterpart extremist politicians throughout history. It is obvious that an extreme stance on the left and the right, and total control over a nation, is a disaster waiting to happen. From Hitler to Stalin to Mao to Pol Pot to Fidel to Hugo to Saddam...etc.
Hugo Chavez is a problem. Even if some of his ideas may work or may be intelligent, they get lost in the delivery. Ultimately, as history has shown, extreme leftist policies rarely work any better than extreme right wing policies. He will fail, and if he doesn't go away soon after, someone will make him from within or without.
_________________ In 1973 one was tracked over Sinai at Mach 3.2, although it was later discovered that it had wrecked its engines in the process.
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:10 am Posts: 662 Location: Arvada, CO Gender: Male
Mikoyan Guryevich wrote:
[Chavez] will fail, and if he doesn't go away soon after, someone will make him from within or without.
He may fail, but I think it might be after some of the developing world joins his "bolivarian revolution." Despite what the elite-run Venezuelan media* says about this guy, he was freed after the coup attempt by a popular uprising and he won his recall overwhelmingly. His social "missions" make him very popular among marginalized members of South American society. There is a significant portion of the population of SA against him, but aren't there two sides to most revolutions?
*Even though Chavez openly fires back at media critics and tries to undermine freedom of the press, there are portions of the Venezuelan media that are still critical of him, if I am to believe what I read.
_________________ ...and then they made me their chief.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:52 pm Posts: 1727 Location: Earth Gender: Male
Quote:
Hugo Chavez is a problem.
I beg to differ. I think he is a great leader for the people of Venezuela. He doesn't cater to American corporate interests and that upsets many in here. Therefor he's been demonized and made out to be crazy by U.S. press. Because those that own the press have a vested interest in seeing us continue to access cheap oil from Venezuela.
Anyone ever check out the documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised?" It's all about the attempted CIA coup that actually took Chavez out of power for a day or two a couple years ago. Hardly covered here in U.S. media.
Now let me get this straight a democractically elected leader being brought down by the U.S. Government's CIA because he was taking care of his people before giving into oil companies demands. Hmmmm now what was that line about the U.S. being a beacon of freedom around the world, b.s.?
Chavez is fullfilling his promise to his constituants by giving land that is there's back to the poor people of Venezuela. Chavez thinks oil companies should pay fair amounts for the oil they take, and money should be given back to the people, not the multi-national corporations that have been cheating these people outta a better life for quite some time now.
I do think Chavez likes attention, and he should. Anyone who's sitting on that much oil, with a giant fiend just north and it's insatiable need for more. It's only inevitable that if Chavez won't play ball with the U.S. that he may see some more attempts on his life, unfortunetly.
_________________ "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." -Noam Chomsky
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:25 pm Posts: 3567 Location: Swingin from the Gallows Pole
IEB! wrote:
Quote:
Hugo Chavez is a problem.
I beg to differ. I think he is a great leader for the people of Venezuela. He doesn't cater to American corporate interests and that upsets many in here. Therefor he's been demonized and made out to be crazy by U.S. press. Because those that own the press have a vested interest in seeing us continue to access cheap oil from Venezuela.
Anyone ever check out the documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised?" It's all about the attempted CIA coup that actually took Chavez out of power for a day or two a couple years ago. Hardly covered here in U.S. media.
Now let me get this straight a democractically elected leader being brought down by the U.S. Government's CIA because he was taking care of his people before giving into oil companies demands. Hmmmm now what was that line about the U.S. being a beacon of freedom around the world, b.s.?
Chavez is fullfilling his promise to his constituants by giving land that is there's back to the poor people of Venezuela. Chavez thinks oil companies should pay fair amounts for the oil they take, and money should be given back to the people, not the multi-national corporations that have been cheating these people outta a better life for quite some time now.
I do think Chavez likes attention, and he should. Anyone who's sitting on that much oil, with a giant fiend just north and it's insatiable need for more. It's only inevitable that if Chavez won't play ball with the U.S. that he may see some more attempts on his life, unfortunetly.
So you think its ok for Chavez to control his countries lack of oil exports while his people continue to be in poverty? I think Chavez is the only one cheating his people out of a better life. Without trade, there is no increase in living standards.
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:52 pm Posts: 1727 Location: Earth Gender: Male
Zutballs wrote:
So you think its ok for Chavez to control his countries lack of oil exports while his people continue to be in poverty? I think Chavez is the only one cheating his people out of a better life. Without trade, there is no increase in living standards.
They have been exporting oil. And still are. Chavez wants fair prices for his oil. He doesn't think these oil corporations should be making all this money while the people of his country stay poor.
I dont' see what your trying to say here. Without fair trade there is no increase in living standards. Just look at all the shit China makes and exports for Wal-Mart. Are you telling me those people's living standards are increasing because they trade 18 billion a year w/ Wal-Mart? I dont' think so.
Chavez doesn't have all the answers. But his defiance from U.S. corporate interests in attempts to give his people better lives gets a from me.
_________________ "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." -Noam Chomsky
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:25 pm Posts: 3567 Location: Swingin from the Gallows Pole
IEB! wrote:
Zutballs wrote:
So you think its ok for Chavez to control his countries lack of oil exports while his people continue to be in poverty? I think Chavez is the only one cheating his people out of a better life. Without trade, there is no increase in living standards.
They have been exporting oil. And still are. Chavez wants fair prices for his oil. He doesn't think these oil corporations should be making all this money while the people of his country stay poor.
I dont' see what your trying to say here. Without fair trade there is no increase in living standards. Just look at all the shit China makes and exports for Wal-Mart. Are you telling me those people's living standards are increasing because they trade 18 billion a year w/ Wal-Mart? I dont' think so.
Chavez doesn't have all the answers. But his defiance from U.S. corporate interests in attempts to give his people better lives gets a from me.
I think you and Chavez are forgetting some basic concepts in economics. Chavez isn't delivering his oil or selling his oil to costumers. Chavez is only providing the raw material. A commodity like oil is really no different than other commodities, he can't command a dramatically higher price for oil just because he wants to.
About China, their standard of living in areas around cities has dramatically increased. I highly suggest you read "Hot Commodities" by Jim Rogers if you want to get a first hand look at the new china. Jim Rogers has spent alot of time there and China is going to be an economic superpower. China is loosing its hands on the economy, unlike Venezula, and is benefitting from it.
IEB what makes the US have a higher standard of living than say Mexico? Personally, I think its the companies that make the US an economic superpower. What do you think its from?
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Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:10 am Posts: 662 Location: Arvada, CO Gender: Male
Zutballs wrote:
I think you and Chavez are forgetting some basic concepts in economics. Chavez isn't delivering his oil or selling his oil to costumers. Chavez is only providing the raw material. A commodity like oil is really no different than other commodities, he can't command a dramatically higher price for oil just because he wants to.
Chavez is making a shitload of money with his national oil company. His national oil company owns Citgo, by the way. He and his energy minister Rafael Ramirez have increased royalties on a barrel of oil from 1% to 17%; they have upped the taxes from the operating agreements with companies like Exxon and Chevron from 34% to 50% of profits. The operating agreements have been redrawn (without negotiation, the only company fighting it is Exxon) to become joint ventures with PDVSA (Venezuela's oil company) controlling 51%. Everytime we buy gas at 7-11, or just about anywhere else, we are funding Chavez's social missions--which as of late have been pretty successful.
The problems I have with Chavez are mostly human rights issues, such as free press and police brutality. But make no mistake, Chavez is popular in a poor region because he has brought affordable food and created jobs for the impoverished people. He has won two internationally monitored elections, and a popular uprising restored him to power after he was overthrown.
--I got my figures from Fortune
_________________ ...and then they made me their chief.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:52 pm Posts: 1727 Location: Earth Gender: Male
I'm confused, Zutballs are you saying that Chavez is not selling oil to other countries or not giving back to the people of Venezuela? Because he is doing both. I'll check out Hot Commodities but don't think economics or Mexico is what the issue at hand is when it comes to Venezuela regarding oil. By that I mean they tore up the 32 contracts they had with oil companies. They wrote news ones stated the above increases. The people are seeing these benefits. I can run down the programs that have been started and have prospered due to the oil revenues. They want to get paid a fair price for it's most valuable resource. I see nothing wrong with that. As of Nov. 10th 22 of the smaller companies had migrated to the new contract. Big Oil is still holding out...
_________________ "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." -Noam Chomsky
If by "helping" you mean turning them into slave-farmers...... then yes Chavez has helped the poorest in his nation. Of course, most people are being crushed under inflation and his polic state, but hey. It's "for the people".
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:10 am Posts: 662 Location: Arvada, CO Gender: Male
broken_iris wrote:
If by "helping" you mean turning them into slave-farmers...... then yes Chavez has helped the poorest in his nation. Of course, most people are being crushed under inflation and his polic state, but hey. It's "for the people".
I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. Chavez has created jobs, and has begun subsidizing a supermarket chain so people can afford food and other things. I don't really think people are getting crushed so much, because Venezuela was always poor (the per capita GDP is $5,800). I think the people who have the biggest problem with Chavez is the middle-class. Cuba is pretty equal, as far as wealth distribution is concerned, and I think that Chavez is working towards that classless society ideal. It remains to be seen if we're talking about USSR classless, or cuba classless, but I think at least for however long Chavez is in power, Venezuela will try to attain that Cuba model. And that's going to lower the standard of living for the middle-class, but the poor surely don't mind.
_________________ ...and then they made me their chief.
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Saturday blamed Washington for orchestrating his dispute with Mexico's president over U.S. free-trade accords, but he insisted Mexico would have to resolve the dispute.
Wearing a broad-rimmed sombrero, Chavez sang Mexican ballads with a mariachi band before thousands of his supporters at the end of a march to back him days after Venezuela and Mexico withdrew their ambassadors in a diplomatic standoff.
"How great the people of Mexico even though they are alongside the most powerful empire," Chavez roared from a stage outside his presidential palace. "That's why we say, 'Long live the people of Mexico, we are with you.'"
The dispute broke out after Mexican President Vicente Fox criticized Chavez, and the Venezuelan leader countered by calling him a "lap dog" of U.S. imperialism for his close ties to Washington and said, "Don't mess with me, mister, or you'll get stung."
"The one to blame for all this lamentable conflict is none other than Mr Danger," Chavez said using his usual reference to President Bush. "We hope things cool down... but that depends on the Mexican government," he told the crowd.
The spat between Mexico and Venezuela broke out after leaders met at the Summit of the Americas in Argentina to discuss the U.S.-backed Free Trade Area for the Americas.
Mexico has insisted on an apology from Chavez to end the worst recent crisis between the two countries.
Chavez, a self-proclaimed socialist revolutionary allied with Cuba, has become Washington's fiercest critic in the region in contrast to Fox, a former Coca-Cola executive who backs the U.S. administration on many issues.
A blunt-speaking former soldier praised for championing the poor, Chavez often sings and tells folk tales during his lengthy public speeches.
Earlier, protesters marched through Caracas carrying banners reading: "Against Yankee imperialism and its lackey Fox" and "Respect Venezuela" alongside posters of revolutionary heroes Mexican Emiliano Zapata and Argentine Che Guevara.
The diplomatic dispute has underscored divisions in Latin America over U.S. proposals for a regionwide free-trade zone and the growing gulf between the United States and Venezuela, the world's fifth-biggest oil exporter.
In the latest clash between Washington and Caracas, U.S. officials this week branded Chavez a threat to democracy and the ex-army paratrooper responded by blasting Bush as an "assassin, a mass murderer and a madman."
Since Chavez was elected in 1998, ties between the United States and Venezuela have steadily deteriorated though Venezuela still supplies about 15 percent of U.S. oil imports.
Chavez says his "revolution for the poor" is an alternative to U.S. capitalist policies in Latin America and has sought out energy and trade deals with neighboring countries in an effort to counter U.S. influence.
But U.S. officials say Chavez has undermined democracy at home by controlling the courts and electoral authority and become a menace to the region by using confrontation overseas to shore up his domestic support.
------------------------------
LA CUCARACHA!
LA CUCARACHA!
¡América invadirá si usted no me obedece!
obedece! obedece!
venga y trabaje en una granja para mí!
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from me.
