Board index » Word on the Street... » News & Debate




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: On the size of the military, future wars, and policy.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:00 am 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am
Posts: 17078
Location: TX
This article is on the New York Times website, of which I am a member, so not sure if you folks can view it. I will copy paste part of it though.


www.nytimes.com wrote:
By FRED KAPLAN
Published: January 1, 2006

ONE million men and women serve in the United States Army, so why is it proving nearly impossible to keep a mere 150,000 of them in Iraq?


The Pentagon expects to face many Iraq-type conflicts in the coming years, wars that involve battling insurgents and restoring stability. As a result, a debate is beginning to churn in defense policy circles: Should the government enlarge the military so it can more easily fight these wars? Or should the government alter its policies, so as not to fight such wars as often, at least not alone?

Senior Pentagon officials argue that neither shift is necessary, that reorganizing the Army's existing combat units into stronger, faster and more flexible brigades will have the same effect as adding more soldiers. But some analysts doubt these adjustments alone will go far enough.

Lawrence Korb, who was assistant secretary of defense for manpower and reserve affairs in the Reagan administration, states the issue baldly: "We cannot fight a long, sustained war without a larger ground force." He defines a "long war" as lasting two years or more. The Iraq war has gone on now for nearly three.

The claim may seem strange, until you peel apart the numbers. Of the Army's one million soldiers, fewer than 400,000 are combat troops (the rest are support personnel). Only about 150,000 of those combat troops are on active duty; the rest are in the National Guard and Reserves.

Then there is the matter of rotation. Combat units, at least in an all-volunteer force, cannot be deployed for much longer than a year. (To do otherwise would risk exhaustion and demoralization.) Replacements come while the battle-weary go out for rest, retraining and resupply. Therefore, to sustain one active brigade (about 3,500 troops) in a war zone, one or two additional brigades must be ready to replace it.

Finally, Iraq isn't the only foreign country where American combat troops are stationed.

In a study published in October, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office calculated that given all these factors the military could not sustain more than 123,000 troops in Iraq for much longer.

Additional forces, the budget office concluded, would require the United States to "increase the size of the land forces, terminate some other commitment or rotate forces to Iraq at more demanding rates." In the past year, the Pentagon has already stretched the rotation cycle in Iraq, for both active and reserve forces; and it has redeployed one brigade from Bosnia and another from South Korea. "There isn't much more leeway for simply moving people around," Mr. Korb said.

That leaves the other option: adding more land forces overall. How many? James Dobbins and James Quinlivan, military analysts at the RAND Corporation, have analyzed historical data on the numbers of foreign troops in various occupations after a war. They found that all the successful missions involved troop levels totaling at least 2 percent of the occupied country's population.

Taking that figure as a rough rule of thumb, securing Iraq, which has 25 million people, would require 500,000 foreign troops. American and coalition forces now total about 180,000.

Gen. Eric Shinseki, the former Army chief of staff, drew on similar historical studies when he told the Senate Armed Services Committee in February 2003, a month before the war started, that "several hundred thousand troops" would be needed to restore order after the fighting (a claim that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, at the time, vigorously disputed).

A force that large probably could have been mobilized to Iraq for some period, maybe for a year. In 2003-2004, before the insurgency got seriously under way, that may have been enough to impose order. But now, it is generally recognized that it's not possible to send any more troops from the Army as it stands.


All I have to say is...how about we stop sticking our fucking noses, and our dicks, into other countries and other peoples business. If they are massing people inside thier country to blow us up here in America, that is one thing (Afghanistan), but just the thought of another Iraq makes me want to explode.

I lied, that is not all I have to say, I will add more later. Also, this is not the entire article, if you want to read the rest let me know.

_________________
George Washington wrote:
six foot twenty fucking killing for fun


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: On the size of the military, future wars, and policy.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:16 am 
Offline
User avatar
Administrator
 Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm
Posts: 20537
Location: The City Of Trees
www.nytimes.com wrote:
The Pentagon expects to face many Iraq-type conflicts in the coming years, wars that involve battling insurgents and restoring stability.


:cry: Fuck war.

www.nytimes.com wrote:
As a result, a debate is beginning to churn in defense policy circles: Should the government enlarge the military so it can more easily fight these wars? Or should the government alter its policies, so as not to fight such wars as often, at least not alone?


The latter, by far.

www.nytimes.com wrote:
That leaves the other option: adding more land forces overall. How many? James Dobbins and James Quinlivan, military analysts at the RAND Corporation, have analyzed historical data on the numbers of foreign troops in various occupations after a war. They found that all the successful missions involved troop levels totaling at least 2 percent of the occupied country's population.

Taking that figure as a rough rule of thumb, securing Iraq, which has 25 million people, would require 500,000 foreign troops. American and coalition forces now total about 180,000.


This is an interesting statement. Though you have to take into account that not all of Iraq is chaotic, it does put to perspective how badly they underestimated the difficulty of this endeavour. As this next paragraph says:

www.nytimes.com wrote:
Gen. Eric Shinseki, the former Army chief of staff, drew on similar historical studies when he told the Senate Armed Services Committee in February 2003, a month before the war started, that "several hundred thousand troops" would be needed to restore order after the fighting (a claim that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, at the time, vigorously disputed).


Buffalohed wrote:
All I have to say is...how about we stop sticking our fucking noses, and our dicks, into other countries and other peoples business.


Sounds great to me. :thumbsup:


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:22 am 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am
Posts: 17078
Location: TX
If not for my thunderous hangover, I would write a much longer reply. :(

_________________
George Washington wrote:
six foot twenty fucking killing for fun


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:26 am 
Offline
User avatar
Administrator
 Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm
Posts: 20537
Location: The City Of Trees
Buffalohed wrote:
If not for my thunderous hangover, I would write a much longer reply. :(


I hear you. Take your time, I'll listen whenever it comes.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: On the size of the military, future wars, and policy.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:49 pm
Posts: 9495
Location: Richie-Richville, Maryland
Buffalohed wrote:
All I have to say is...how about we stop sticking our fucking noses, and our dicks, into other countries and other peoples business. If they are massing people inside thier country to blow us up here in America, that is one thing (Afghanistan), but just the thought of another Iraq makes me want to explode.


I think most people here would agree with you, but there are so many conditions to this idea. Shouldn't we support people who are being murdered by their governments (Sudan, Burma, North Korea, etc.)? Should we, like in Iraq, fight to enable people to choose who should replace American imposed dictators (Saddam)? We did support/enable him to commit his crimes, aren't we somewhat repsonsible for helping set them right?

In a world where no one is more than 24 hours away from anyone else, and all of our economies are dependant on each other, is anything really just someone else's business? And if the US doesn't act when action is needed (Iran, Sudan, etc.) .... who will?

_________________
you get a lifetime, that's it.


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Johnny Guitar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:46 am
Posts: 171
Location: Mockba, CCCP
Look at what this country's got
There shouldn't be nobody homeless
How can the president fix other problems when he ain't fixed home yet?

-Nasty Nas


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am
Posts: 17078
Location: TX
broken_iris wrote:
And if the US doesn't act when action is needed (Iran, Sudan, etc.) .... who will?

What determines when action is "needed"? More than we need it in our own country? Shit, every country on this planet needs help. Are we the ones that should give it to them? Not when it gets us into the shit it has been in recent years: Iraq, Vietnam, etc. The last thing we "need" is to "help" more countries in "need".

_________________
George Washington wrote:
six foot twenty fucking killing for fun


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Landry
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:50 am
Posts: 11842
Buffalohed wrote:
broken_iris wrote:
And if the US doesn't act when action is needed (Iran, Sudan, etc.) .... who will?

What determines when action is "needed"? More than we need it in our own country? Shit, every country on this planet needs help. Are we the ones that should give it to them? Not when it gets us into the shit it has been in recent years: Iraq, Vietnam, etc. The last thing we "need" is to "help" more countries in "need".


I think his point was that we have the fiscal resources to help, and that obligates us to do so to some extent. You can argue about the scale all you want, but it makes sense.


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am
Posts: 17078
Location: TX
parchy wrote:
Buffalohed wrote:
broken_iris wrote:
And if the US doesn't act when action is needed (Iran, Sudan, etc.) .... who will?

What determines when action is "needed"? More than we need it in our own country? Shit, every country on this planet needs help. Are we the ones that should give it to them? Not when it gets us into the shit it has been in recent years: Iraq, Vietnam, etc. The last thing we "need" is to "help" more countries in "need".


I think his point was that we have the fiscal resources to help, and that obligates us to do so to some extent. You can argue about the scale all you want, but it makes sense.

Two questions.

First, does our fiscal situation really lend us to giving help on the scale that we do? We are trillions of dollars in debt, and that is going up very fast, and hundreds of programs on the homefront are in a downward spiral due to lack of funds; See the Education system.

Second, why can't we be like the other 1st world countries, and donate a moderate amount of help/money without sending over an army and occupying thier country. I mean, tons of other countries are giving money and helping the struggling countries, but only the US and to a much lesser extent the UK have taken that to a ridiculous extreme.

Basically, I do not think we have the funds to help. But we are obligated to help even so, albeit on a scale much closer to some of our European and Asian allies.

_________________
George Washington wrote:
six foot twenty fucking killing for fun


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:49 pm
Posts: 9495
Location: Richie-Richville, Maryland
parchy wrote:

I think his point was that we have the fiscal resources to help, and that obligates us to do so to some extent. You can argue about the scale all you want, but it makes sense.


Yeah, by "action" I didn't mean invade. Actions can be logistical support, like after the Asian Tsunami, food, water, medicine, technology, and some times weapons and soldiers.


Buffalohed wrote:
First, does our fiscal situation really lend us to giving help on the scale that we do? We are trillions of dollars in debt, and that is going up very fast, and hundreds of programs on the homefront are in a downward spiral due to lack of funds; See the Education system.


I agree the US has seriously distorted priorities when it comes to spending money domestically.

Helping other nations is like a stock market trade. It almost always pays off in the long run, but it can cause some real scares in the short term. So long as you have an achievable goal, a clear entry and exit plan, and support from all the stakeholders, the investment will put you in a better financial position in the future. Everyone just needs to remember there will be up and down days in the market for peace and future stability.

Buffalohed wrote:

Second, why can't we be like the other 1st world countries, and donate a moderate amount of help/money without sending over an army and occupying thier country. I mean, tons of other countries are giving money and helping the struggling countries, but only the US and to a much lesser extent the UK have taken that to a ridiculous extreme.



The reason that they get away with donating money is that the US sends it's equipment and troops to the nations in need. Think of it like they are donating to the Police department. Donate all you want, but at some point you are gonna need a few cops.

Most multinational forces are almost always useless, like the African forces currently in Sudan. They are all bark, no bite. An example to hold up and say "Look! We took the moral high ground and sent in peacekeepers instead of invading." U.N.fortunately for the people on suffering, the moral high ground doesn't always work. I think the US policy makers just need to realize that not everyone around the global is ready for a secular democracy. It may sound racist/nationalist to say this but some cultures just aren't there yet, no matter how much nation building we do.

_________________
you get a lifetime, that's it.


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am
Posts: 17078
Location: TX
broken_iris, I get what you are saying. It's a wonderful scenario, for the US to be the only ones brave and righteous enough to go around saving the world, the only ones actually willing to send our troops and provide real help. But it is destroying this country in many ways. First of all, people around the world hate us right now. The citizens are increasingly unhappy with our foreign and domestic policy choices. Again, we are accumulating an astronomical amount of debt.

Let's face it. The US cannot save the world by itself. The people of the US don't want to save the world by themselves. The world does not want to be saved by the US. And the bottom line is we are wearing ourselves thin and Americans: sons, daughters, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers are dying because of it. The people of the US will not continue to be willing to sacrifice so many of our own people for all these righteous foreign wars. And it doesn't help that our recent administrations (read: Bush) seem to turn every instance of "help" in another country into a military encounter.

_________________
George Washington wrote:
six foot twenty fucking killing for fun


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:56 am 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:54 am
Posts: 7189
Location: CA
Buffalohed wrote:
The world does not want to be saved by the US.


I'd be willing to wager that there are thousands of Sudanese and Rwandans who feel otherwise. Oh, as well as those affected by the Tsunami and the more recent Earthquake in Pakistan on a strictly humanitarian basis. Everyone loves to hate the West untill they find themeselves in a shitty situation and then complain when we don't get there fast enough. Our help is wanted if it doesn't involve overthrowing the current regime or any blood letting, which unfortunately is rarely possible. Even in Kosovo our peacekeeping operation, although fairly low key was far too late to be of much use and the 'bloodless' air campaign did little to stop the attrocities on the ground. On one hand I feel that Western nations do have an obligation to the third worlddue to their colonial pasts, but on the other hand its very difficult to do anything without pissing off someone.


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:11 am 
Offline
User avatar
Yeah Yeah Yeah
 Profile

Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:36 am
Posts: 5458
Location: Left field
This is going to be a long a thread

_________________
seen it all, not at all
can't defend fucked up man
take me a for a ride before we leave...

Rise. Life is in motion...

don't it make you smile?
don't it make you smile?
when the sun don't shine? (shine at all)
don't it make you smile?

RIP


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Supersonic
 Profile

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am
Posts: 10694
I gaurantee you that if America was to lift anchor, and become truly isolationist, that waaaayyyyy more people out there would us than do today.

_________________
Its a Wonderful Life


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am
Posts: 17078
Location: TX
LittleWing wrote:
I gaurantee you that if America was to lift anchor, and become truly isolationist, that waaaayyyyy more people out there would us than do today.

You left out a word or two in there, but I'm too afraid to guess what they are.

_________________
George Washington wrote:
six foot twenty fucking killing for fun


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Supersonic
 Profile

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am
Posts: 10694
Buffalohed wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
I gaurantee you that if America was to lift anchor, and become truly isolationist, that waaaayyyyy more people out there would hate us than they do today.

You left out a word or two in there, but I'm too afraid to guess what they are.


Fixed

_________________
Its a Wonderful Life


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Father Bitch
 Profile

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:20 am
Posts: 5198
Location: Connecticut
Gender: Male
LittleWing wrote:
I gaurantee you that if America was to lift anchor, and become truly isolationist, that waaaayyyyy more people out there would hate us than they do today.


I believe this to be true as well. This is kind of a lose/lose situation for the USA.



simple schoolboy wrote:
Everyone loves to hate the West untill they find themeselves in a shitty situation and then complain when we don't get there fast enough.


Also very true.

broken_iris wrote:
Helping other nations is like a stock market trade. It almost always pays off in the long run, but it can cause some real scares in the short term. So long as you have an achievable goal, a clear entry and exit plan, and support from all the stakeholders, the investment will put you in a better financial position in the future. Everyone just needs to remember there will be up and down days in the market for peace and future stability.


Only thing here is, you can sometimes regain money you've lost in the stock market. No matter how great your entry/exit plans are, people will die, and you can't make up for that.

broken_iris wrote:
Most multinational forces are almost always useless, like the African forces currently in Sudan. They are all bark, no bite. An example to hold up and say "Look! We took the moral high ground and sent in peacekeepers instead of invading." U.N.fortunately for the people on suffering, the moral high ground doesn't always work.


I agree with you here, 100%, but what's the alternative? I don't believe that the USA should be this world's police force. I don't believe at all that there should be a single world government, but nations do need to work together to solve problems. It can't be the USA all the time. Is it OK for the USA to lose troops "liberating" nations on the other side of the world, while other rich (and plenty powerful) nations on that same side of the world do nothing?

At what point in time will the European Union be held to the same responsiblities the USA is held to? Are they not just as financially/logistically capable, collectively? Did we really need to be in Kosovo or Bosnia? That was their backyard, and they could've done it themselves.

Buffalohed wrote:
But we are obligated to help even so, albeit on a scale much closer to some of our European and Asian allies.


What if the EU and Asia helped out on our scale? Things might get done more efficiently. The USA is not financially or militarily obligated to anyone other than it's citizens. If you want to argue that nations are morally obligated to eachother, then the obligation should be shared equally.

Nations don't typically go to war (or use their military) without there being something in it for them though, so sadly, I don't think moral obligation is going to help countries in need. Their problems will have to directly affect the rest of the world (like in Iraq and N Korea) for there to be change.


To me the bottom line is:
Buffalohed wrote:
The US cannot save the world by itself.


Nor should we have to.


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:54 am
Posts: 7189
Location: CA
With all the money that China is pumping into their military, you'd think they could help out more in their hemisphere, wouldn't ya? Its not like they have anything else to do other than quash major protests and point missiles at Taiwan.


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:46 am 
Offline
User avatar
too drunk to moderate properly
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm
Posts: 39068
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Gender: Male
simple schoolboy wrote:
With all the money that China is pumping into their military, you'd think they could help out more in their hemisphere, wouldn't ya? Its not like they have anything else to do other than quash major protests and point missiles at Taiwan.


Even China won't drag it's army into an unwinnable war against the will of its people.

_________________
"Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.


Top
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:58 am 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:54 am
Posts: 7189
Location: CA
B wrote:
simple schoolboy wrote:
With all the money that China is pumping into their military, you'd think they could help out more in their hemisphere, wouldn't ya? Its not like they have anything else to do other than quash major protests and point missiles at Taiwan.


Even China won't drag it's army into an unwinnable war against the will of its people.


But then of course they do have an easier time of swaying their people's position on things. Their propoganda machine can be much more direct. ;)


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Word on the Street... » News & Debate


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
It is currently Mon Dec 29, 2025 10:36 pm