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 Post subject: Reclassified U.S. Documents
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:30 pm 
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US intelligence agencies reclassify archive documents
Tue Feb 21, 10:17 AM ET

NEW YORK (AFP) - US intelligence agencies have been removing from public access thousands of historical documents that were available for years, including some already published or obtained by private historians, a US newspaper reported.

The New York Times said the restoration of classified status to more than 55,000 previously declassified pages began in 1999, when the Central Intelligence Agency and five other agencies objected to what they saw as a hasty release of sensitive information.

It accelerated after the administration of President George W. Bush took office and especially after the 2001 terrorist attacks, according to the report.

But because the reclassification program is itself shrouded in secrecy, it continued virtually without outside notice until December, the paper said.

That was when an intelligence historian, Matthew Aid, noticed that dozens of documents he had copied years ago had been withdrawn from the archives' open shelves.

Those included mostly decades-old State Department reports from the Korean War and the early Cold War, The Times said.

He found that eight reclassified documents had been previously published in the State Department's history series, "Foreign Relations of the United States."

"The stuff they pulled should never have been removed," the paper quoted the historian as saying. "Some of it is mundane, and some of it is outright ridiculous."

After Aid and other historians complained, the archives' Information Security Oversight Office began an audit of the reclassification program, according to The Times.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060221/pl ... 0221151706

C'mon! This is no way to run a government. Even if I didn't have a problem with the excessive secrecy of our government (which I do), why are we paying for government workers to do this completely pointless task?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:11 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Reclassified U.S. Documents
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:34 am 
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B wrote:
why are we paying for government workers to do this completely pointless task?


That's your beef? If so, you must be mad as hell about a million government-sponsored or based departments, agencies, programs, etc. Hell, you sound like the GM management team regarding union workers after it finally woke up and realized it was pissing billions of dollars away.


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 Post subject: Re: Reclassified U.S. Documents
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:57 am 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
B wrote:
why are we paying for government workers to do this completely pointless task?


That's your beef? If so, you must be mad as hell about a million government-sponsored or based departments, agencies, programs, etc. Hell, you sound like the GM management team regarding union workers after it finally woke up and realized it was pissing billions of dollars away.


:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Reclassified U.S. Documents
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:58 am 
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jwfocker wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
B wrote:
why are we paying for government workers to do this completely pointless task?


That's your beef? If so, you must be mad as hell about a million government-sponsored or based departments, agencies, programs, etc. Hell, you sound like the GM management team regarding union workers after it finally woke up and realized it was pissing billions of dollars away.


:roll:


Good post. Care to add something to it?


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 Post subject: Re: Reclassified U.S. Documents
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:16 am 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
B wrote:
why are we paying for government workers to do this completely pointless task?


That's your beef? If so, you must be mad as hell about a million government-sponsored or based departments, agencies, programs, etc. Hell, you sound like the GM management team regarding union workers after it finally woke up and realized it was pissing billions of dollars away.


I don't have a problem with the government spending money on services, projects with documented benefits, jobs that accomplish stuff, ...

This is absurd! They're hiding documents that have been public record for YEARS! What the FUCK!?

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 Post subject: Re: Reclassified U.S. Documents
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:54 am 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
jwfocker wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
B wrote:
why are we paying for government workers to do this completely pointless task?


That's your beef? If so, you must be mad as hell about a million government-sponsored or based departments, agencies, programs, etc. Hell, you sound like the GM management team regarding union workers after it finally woke up and realized it was pissing billions of dollars away.


:roll:


Good post. Care to add something to it?


Thanks, I liked it and I felt I made my point. It's a bit strange to me that you bitch about one trivial aspect of what B said and then turn it into the same tired argument about an excess of government sponsored projects and services. When it seemed obvious to me that the issue that B was bringing to light was the classification of documents that have been in the publics hands for some time

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:04 am 
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Chris, by the way, which government agencies are so completely and inarguably worthless as to deserve comparison to this project?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:14 am 
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Slate.com wrote:
Secret Again
The absurd scheme to reclassify documents.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Thursday, Feb. 23, 2006, at 7:00 PM ET


Those who control the past control the future, Orwell famously wrote in 1984. In the realm of national-security policy, the battle for this control is heating up.

The latest skirmish started last December, when an independent scholar named Matthew Aid went to the National Archives to re-examine some declassified documents that he'd copied several months earlier and learned that they'd been removed from the public shelves and reclassified.

Looking into the matter further, he discovered that, over the last five years, in a program that itself has been a secret, U.S. military and intelligence agencies have reclassified 9,500 documents, constituting more than 55,000 pages, some of them dating back to World War II. And that's just so far. The program under which they've been doing this—which has never been authorized or funded by Congress—is scheduled to continue until at least March 2007.

Many of these documents "fall somewhere between mundane and banal," as Aid puts it. (The National Security Archive, a private research group housed at George Washington University, has reprinted some of them here.) Several of them were published years ago in the State Department's official history volumes, Foreign Relations of the United States (a series that undergoes thorough security-vetting before publication). Quite a few of the papers seem to have been reclassified only because they're embarrassing. For instance, one document reveals that, in the fall of 1950, the CIA predicted the Chinese would not intervene in the Korean War; 12 days later, they did. (Classifying, much less reclassifying documents for this purpose, if that was in fact the reason, is not just stupid but illegal. Federal law states: "No information … shall be classified in order to … prevent embarrassment of a person, organization, or agency.")

Why is this happening? Much of the background is laid out by Matthew Aid, in an essay for the National Security Archive; my own sources have confirmed and built on his account. In 1995, President Bill Clinton signed Executive Order 12958, stating that all classified documents should be made public after 25 years, except for those that fall under certain categories.

In 1998, officials inside the Department of Energy, which is in charge of nuclear weapons, expressed concerns that too much sensitive material had been mistakenly declassified in the rush to obey Clinton's order. As a result, Congress passed the Kyl-Lott Amendment, authorizing the DoE to reclassify any and all documents relating to nuclear-weapons design. Even many freedom-of-information activists supported Kyl-Lott, though with reservations.

But then the Energy Department's success inspired other agencies to wage a counteroffensive against the movement toward historical openness. In 1999, the CIA, the Defense Department, all three branches of the armed forces, and the Justice Department wrote to the chief of the National Archives, claiming that, under Clinton's executive order, thousands of documents had been declassified improperly. They argued that their agencies had "equity" in those documents and that, therefore, they should have been consulted before declassification took place. Statutes governing the National Archive note that an agency has "equity" in some other agency's documents if their declassification "would affect its interests or actions." Let's say a State Department document refers to some CIA intelligence estimates; according to the "equity" theory, State should not be allowed to declassify it without the CIA's permission.

From 1999 to 2000, CIA security officials, citing this argument, removed and reclassified 1,400 State Department documents, totaling 9,750 pages, from the National Archives' public shelves. These were among the documents that Matthew Aid tried to re-examine last December. In early 2001, the CIA and the other agencies demanded the right to go through all declassified documents—material released not just through Clinton's order, but over the last several decades. In September 2003, they announced at a meeting of the State Department's Advisory Committee on Historical Diplomatic Documentation that they would soon expand their search to the declassified records on file at the Presidential Libraries. (How much they've actually examined has not been quantified. An official at the John F. Kennedy Library did not return three phone calls.)

It isn't clear whether this campaign for control is being directed by the Bush administration or even to what extent political appointees are aware of it. It is clear, though, that the security apparatchiks—those who have always resisted the loosening of controls—intensified their efforts after Clinton left the White House, on the accurate premise that George W. Bush and his entourage would, at the very least, not mind.

With very few exceptions, we are not talking here about secrets that have anything to do with "national security" as anyone might reasonably define the term. In many cases, we are talking about documents that were publicly released—and have since been widely disseminated—after careful review by high-ranking military officers and security personnel. It is also worth noting that much of this reclassification is being conducted by junior officers, or in many cases private contractors who know nothing about the historical context of these documents and nothing about whether the contents are sensitive or innocuous. One military historian told me that some of these junior contractors have been instructed simply to reclassify anything bearing the words "atomic" or "restricted data," regardless of what else the documents might or might not contain.

On Feb. 17, Matthew Aid and the heads of four historians' groups wrote to William J. Leonard, director of the National Archive's Information Security Oversight Office, asking him to conduct an audit of the reclassified documents. Such an audit is under way. This week, Leonard told Scott Shane of the New York Times that none of the documents he'd examined so far should be secret.

The National Archive does not have the authority to reverse the reclassifications. However, as the official White House adviser on classified information, Leonard could urge President Bush—who does have the executive power to direct the declassification of documents—to take action. Rep. Christopher Shays, a liberal Republican from Connecticut and chairman of the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, has scheduled hearings on the reclassification issue for next month. Maybe he'll call Leonard to testify.

Matthew Aid says that if all this doesn't compel the CIA and the other agencies to reverse their actions, he will file a request under the Freedom of Information Act to declassify all documents that have been reclassified since 2001. If they turn down the request, he will file a lawsuit.

Over the years, some agencies, including the CIA, have released treasure troves of once-classified documents that no longer have any bearing on national security. (Take a look at the CIA's and State Department's Web sites for example. Also check out the online libraries of declassified documents at the National Security Archive, the Woodrow Wilson Center's Cold War International History Project, and Steven Aftergood's Secrecy News, among others.)

But the climate has been changing for a while now. In 1998, around the time this campaign got under way, the CIA refused to declassify documents about covert programs dating back to the 1960s. The State Department's advisory committee complained, in a letter to then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, that without these documents, the official record of U.S. foreign policy was in danger of becoming "an official lie." The reclassification of documents is an escalation of this broader campaign not merely to halt but to roll back freedom of information—to regain control of the past and all that goes with it.


Interesting article. Loses points for the hackneyed Orwell reference, though.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:57 pm 
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B wrote:
Chris, by the way, which government agencies are so completely and inarguably worthless as to deserve comparison to this project?


Well, spend time at your local DMV, or watch the guys standing around that work for your state's or city's department of transportation when they're supposed to be fixing the roads. Or how about paying a visit to your downtown post office, or it's water reclamation department. You don't need to go very far to read about cronyism in major cities such as Chicago and Detroit, where people are being indicted left and right for filling ghost payrolls.

My point is, the government hires millions of people to stand around and do nothing, creating waste, inefficiency, and deficits. You can cut the fat off of almost any department, just like in the private sector (hence, my GM reference). I find it curious that you singled this project out for the same thing is all.

And jwfocker, is it ok that I write about these things since B asked, or is it still pointing out something trivial, even though the essence of B's first post was to point this aspect out?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:04 pm 
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Not that those things you mention aren't problems, but people not doing their job, or doing their job poorly, is not the same problem as assigning them to comically pointless jobs.

I don't know the GM story well enough, but I assume it was similar, people doing their job poorly, and yet still receiving pay and/or rewards that they probably shouldn't have been given.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:46 pm 
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B wrote:
Not that those things you mention aren't problems, but people not doing their job, or doing their job poorly, is not the same problem as assigning them to comically pointless jobs.

I don't know the GM story well enough, but I assume it was similar, people doing their job poorly, and yet still receiving pay and/or rewards that they probably shouldn't have been given.


But who was assigned? I assume it's someone who works for the NSA, FBI, or CIA that works exclusively in this realm. I'm not picturing a bunch of special agents or field operatives that have been pulled away from their searches for WMDs in Iraq (do you like that?) or Bin Laden to focus on reclassifying material. My beef comes with the fact that this information has already been out there and, at one point, been deemed to be no security threat whatsoever to the extent it was declassified. I think the whole thing is a mess.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:57 pm 
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Are we even disagreeing on anything?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:11 pm 
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B wrote:
Are we even disagreeing on anything?


No, that was my point earlier. The only thing I was surprised at was that it seemed you were more upset at the resources being thrown at this, rather than the point of re-classifying the documents. I was just commenting on it. Then I was chastised by jwfocker for commenting on a comment, and then all hell broke lose. Now, it appears, the terrorists have, in fact, truly won.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:14 pm 
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Yeah, well, my disgust is multi-faceted.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:26 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
B wrote:
Chris, by the way, which government agencies are so completely and inarguably worthless as to deserve comparison to this project?


Well, spend time at your local DMV, or watch the guys standing around that work for your state's or city's department of transportation when they're supposed to be fixing the roads. Or how about paying a visit to your downtown post office, or it's water reclamation department. You don't need to go very far to read about cronyism in major cities such as Chicago and Detroit, where people are being indicted left and right for filling ghost payrolls.

My point is, the government hires millions of people to stand around and do nothing, creating waste, inefficiency, and deficits. You can cut the fat off of almost any department, just like in the private sector (hence, my GM reference). I find it curious that you singled this project out for the same thing is all.

And jwfocker, is it ok that I write about these things since B asked, or is it still pointing out something trivial, even though the essence of B's first post was to point this aspect out?


honestly if the DMV and road crews are your chief complaint then the government is doing it's job just fine.

There are literally billions wasted on much worse things than two people standing and directing traffic while the road is repaired.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:13 pm 
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gogol wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
B wrote:
Chris, by the way, which government agencies are so completely and inarguably worthless as to deserve comparison to this project?


Well, spend time at your local DMV, or watch the guys standing around that work for your state's or city's department of transportation when they're supposed to be fixing the roads. Or how about paying a visit to your downtown post office, or it's water reclamation department. You don't need to go very far to read about cronyism in major cities such as Chicago and Detroit, where people are being indicted left and right for filling ghost payrolls.

My point is, the government hires millions of people to stand around and do nothing, creating waste, inefficiency, and deficits. You can cut the fat off of almost any department, just like in the private sector (hence, my GM reference). I find it curious that you singled this project out for the same thing is all.

And jwfocker, is it ok that I write about these things since B asked, or is it still pointing out something trivial, even though the essence of B's first post was to point this aspect out?


honestly if the DMV and road crews are your chief complaint then the government is doing it's job just fine.

There are literally billions wasted on much worse things than two people standing and directing traffic while the road is repaired.


Well, they're not my chief complaints, and I never said they were. I simply gave a couple of examples.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:39 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
B wrote:
Chris, by the way, which government agencies are so completely and inarguably worthless as to deserve comparison to this project?


Well, spend time at your local DMV, or watch the guys standing around that work for your state's or city's department of transportation when they're supposed to be fixing the roads. Or how about paying a visit to your downtown post office, or it's water reclamation department. You don't need to go very far to read about cronyism in major cities such as Chicago and Detroit, where people are being indicted left and right for filling ghost payrolls.

My point is, the government hires millions of people to stand around and do nothing, creating waste, inefficiency, and deficits. You can cut the fat off of almost any department, just like in the private sector (hence, my GM reference). I find it curious that you singled this project out for the same thing is all.

And jwfocker, is it ok that I write about these things since B asked, or is it still pointing out something trivial, even though the essence of B's first post was to point this aspect out?


I don't know what happened here

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:28 am 
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bart d. wrote:
Slate.com wrote:
Interesting article. Loses points for the hackneyed Orwell reference, though.


the quote is exactly what i was thinking, this admin. is fuckin' rediculous

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