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 Post subject: Rethinking the Drug War
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:46 pm 
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/03/problems_with_the_drug_war.html

Rethinking the Drug War

March 29, 2006
By John Stossel

Getting high can be bad. Putting people in prison for it is worse. And doing the latter doesn't stop the former.

I was once among the majority who believe that drug use must be illegal. But then I noticed that when vice laws conflict with the law of supply and demand, the conflict is ugly, and the law of supply and demand generally wins.

The drug war costs taxpayers about $40 billion. "Up to three quarters of our budget can somehow be traced back to fighting this war on drugs," said Jerry Oliver, then chief of police in Detroit, told me. Yet the drugs are as available as ever.

Oliver was once a big believer in the war. Not anymore. "It's insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again," he says. "If we did not have this drug war going on, we could spend more time going after robbers and rapists and burglars and murderers. That's what we really should be geared up to do. Clearly we're losing the war on drugs in this country."

No, we're "winning," according to the federal Drug Enforcement Administration, which might get less money if people thought it was losing. Prosecutors hold news conferences announcing the "biggest seizure ever." But what they confiscate makes little difference. We can't even keep drugs out of prisons -- do we really think we can keep them out of all of America?

Even as the drug war fails to reduce the drug supply, many argue that there are still moral reasons to fight the war. "When we fight against drugs, we fight for the souls of our fellow Americans," said President Bush. But the war destroys American souls, too. America locks up a higher percentage of her people than almost any other country. Nearly 4,000 people are arrested every day for mere possession of drugs. That's more people than are arrested for aggravated assault, burglary, vandalism, forcible rape and murder combined.

Authorities say that warns people not to mess with drugs, and that's a critical message to send to America's children. "Protecting the children" has justified many intrusive expansions of government power. Who wants to argue against protecting children?

I have teenage kids. My first instinct is to be glad cocaine and heroin are illegal. It means my kids can't trot down to the local drugstore to buy something that gets them high. Maybe that would deter them.

Or maybe not. The law certainly doesn't prevent them from getting the drugs. Kids say illegal drugs are no harder to get than alcohol.

Perhaps a certain percentage of Americans will use or abuse drugs -- no matter what the law says.

I cannot know. What I do know now, however, are some of the unintended consequences of drug prohibition:

1. More crime. Rarely do people get high and then run out to commit crimes. Most "drug crime" happens because the product is illegal. Since drug sellers can't rely on the police to protect their property, they form gangs and arm themselves. Drug buyers steal to pay the high black market prices. The government says alcohol is as addictive as heroin, but no one is knocking over 7-Elevens to get Budweiser.

2. More terrorism. The profits of the drug trade fund terrorists from Afghanistan to Colombia. Our herbicide-spraying planes teach South American farmers to hate America.

3. Richer criminal gangs. Alcohol prohibition created Al Capone. The gangs drug prohibition is creating are even richer, probably rich enough to buy nuclear weapons. Osama bin Laden was funded partly by drug money.

Government's declaring drugs illegal doesn't mean people can't get them. It just creates a black market, where even nastier things happen. That's why I have come to think that although drug addiction is bad, the drug war is worse.

Copyright 2006 Creators Syndicate

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:49 pm 
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there isnt an argument out there that can sway me on this, drugs are bad, period when used for recreation

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:48 pm 
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People are still doing it...

So obviously the solution is to just legalize it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:49 pm 
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stossel has some outstanding thoughts on this stuff. i've heard him talk about it on 20/20 before. pretty much agree with everything that article says.

here's a prime example of the unexpected effects of prohibition. in texas, they've recently passed a law that requires people buying cold medication to show id and sign their name. this was done to prevent people from buying it in bulk to cook speed.

so, intended effect has happened - less speed is being produced in backwoods barns.

unintended effect is that production has now moved - guess where? - to mexico. and the struggle to gain control of this trade will no doubt spark even more turf wars along the border than we already have. which is saying a lot because some of these towns like nuevo laredo have become pretty nuts.

the mayhem that is a lot of these border towns is a direct result of the ridiculous policies our government continues to back in this "war".

americans will always have an appetite for these drugs. and the criminal element will always find a way to feed that appetite, as long as they are illegal.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:54 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
People are still doing it...

So obviously the solution is to just legalize it.


pedophiles are still pedophiling

murders are still murdering

jaywalkers are still jaywalking

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:00 pm 
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Peeps wrote:
there isnt an argument out there that can sway me on this, drugs are bad, period when used for recreation



well that's really not in question, the question is if the methods used to combat that recreational use are effective. Clearly prohibition is not remotely working.

The law essentially needs discresion especially in sentencing. I personally think non violent recreational drug use needs to be decriminalized and then attacked much like they have with tobacco. Public education and treatment.

No one want's this stuff available at the local drug store, but the current methods are tremendous wastes of resources. 40 Billion? I wager you could spend much less money and combat drug use much more effectively but it's like that with every other government endeavor too. Prohibitive Laws don't do anything to prevent use because the users simply don't care about those consequences, then once they are hooked they are hooked. Education and treatment are more effective at fighting the war on drugs than simple prohibition.

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Last edited by Electromatic on Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:01 pm 
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Haven't we learned that prohibition of any drug does not work? Alcohol, nope. Cocaine, nope. Heroin, nope. Weed, nope. I have no way of proving this but I would think prohibiton is more dangerous to the human population than legalizing, or decriminilaizing, the actual drug.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:27 pm 
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Electromatic wrote:
No one want's this stuff available at the local drug store...

Really? Maybe not the local drug store, but how about the local DRUG store, which would be run like a high security liquor store requiring multiple forms of ID and screening? It would eliminate the black market, which is the real crime problem, not the drug use itself.

Drug abuse can be harmful to users and those close to them, no doubt, but the biggest problem is without a doubt the black market and the gangs and other crime that stems from it.

I mean, I certainly don't believe that the drug abuse problem is going to get any worse if users can buy their junk from a store rather than a gangster. So if that part is a wash, why not eliminate the crime and violence and money-laundering and funding terrorist organizations that is inherent in the black market?

People who disagree with this simply have not thought enough about it or been honest with themselves. The logic behind prohibition is the same logic that says that if schools don't give kids condoms they won't fuck.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:24 pm 
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Peeps wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
People are still doing it...

So obviously the solution is to just legalize it.


pedophiles are still pedophiling

murders are still murdering

jaywalkers are still jaywalking


Yes, murderers are still murdering, and yes, pedophiles are still touching little kids. Guess what? The resources we could be using to stop murderers and pedophiles are being used to put Johnny Smoker behind bars for an ounce of weed. Who cares if someone is being killed; at least nobody is smoking weed. You have to ask yourself, is this worth wasting huge amounts of money, time, and resources?

Another thing: as someone under 21, alcohol is much harder for me to get than weed, because it is legal. Little Johnny can buy some weed on the corner when he's 15. Wouldn't it be better if he had to wait til he was 18 and show ID? If making drugs legal made them harder to get, wouldn't you two be in favor of that?

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Last edited by Orpheus on Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:32 pm 
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Quote:
pedophiles are still pedophiling

murders are still murdering

jaywalkers are still jaywalking - peeps


Well yeah, I mean, since this is still taking place, prohibition obviously isn't working. We should just legalize all those things.

Quote:
Maybe not the local drug store, but how about the local DRUG store, which would be run like a high security liquor store requiring multiple forms of ID and screening? It would eliminate the black market - PD


:lol: :lol: Come on now...

What a juicy oxymoron that was.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:44 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
Quote:
pedophiles are still pedophiling

murders are still murdering

jaywalkers are still jaywalking - peeps


Well yeah, I mean, since this is still taking place, prohibition obviously isn't working. We should just legalize all those things.

Quote:
Maybe not the local drug store, but how about the local DRUG store, which would be run like a high security liquor store requiring multiple forms of ID and screening? It would eliminate the black market - PD


:lol: :lol: Come on now...

What a juicy oxymoron that was.

You want to expand on that?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:47 pm 
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The war on drugs is a joke. My body is mine. Comparing using drugs to murdering people and molesting kids is fucking ridiculous. I have been smoking weed for 12 years, and not a single person other than myself has ever been affected by it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:52 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Quote:
pedophiles are still pedophiling

murders are still murdering

jaywalkers are still jaywalking - peeps


Well yeah, I mean, since this is still taking place, prohibition obviously isn't working. We should just legalize all those things.

Quote:
Maybe not the local drug store, but how about the local DRUG store, which would be run like a high security liquor store requiring multiple forms of ID and screening? It would eliminate the black market - PD


:lol: :lol: Come on now...

What a juicy oxymoron that was.

You want to expand on that?


I think he's saying that relegating drugs to high security areas would only perpetuate the black market.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:56 pm 
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I agree with PD. The black market for the drug creates much more of a problem than the drug itself. Even if drug use did go up, so what? I don't give a shit what other people do if it doesn't affect me. What's the difference between someone getting loaded on blow or alcohol?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:59 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Quote:
pedophiles are still pedophiling

murders are still murdering

jaywalkers are still jaywalking - peeps


Well yeah, I mean, since this is still taking place, prohibition obviously isn't working. We should just legalize all those things.

Quote:
Maybe not the local drug store, but how about the local DRUG store, which would be run like a high security liquor store requiring multiple forms of ID and screening? It would eliminate the black market - PD


:lol: :lol: Come on now...

What a juicy oxymoron that was.

You want to expand on that?


Come on David. Use your head.

- You're gonna regulate it's potency...which will open a black market
- You're gonna sell it special places...which will open a black market
- You're gonna have high security...increases cost...opens a black market
- You're hassling the fuck out of people...opens a black market

You don't honestly think this proposal will eliminate the black market. I asked this before, but how on earth do you expect to control people on hard drugs? The simple fact that you want to confine them into these places, with government regulations to boot, makes the entire "we're gonna eliminate the black market" a moot point.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:00 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Quote:
pedophiles are still pedophiling

murders are still murdering

jaywalkers are still jaywalking - peeps


Well yeah, I mean, since this is still taking place, prohibition obviously isn't working. We should just legalize all those things.

Quote:
Maybe not the local drug store, but how about the local DRUG store, which would be run like a high security liquor store requiring multiple forms of ID and screening? It would eliminate the black market - PD


:lol: :lol: Come on now...

What a juicy oxymoron that was.

You want to expand on that?


I think he's saying that relegating drugs to high security areas would only perpetuate the black market.

Why? If you're over 21, and have enough money to pay for your drugs, you can walk in and out and get them. The black market would only be for those who are underage, and as you've already noted, teenagers seem to have more difficulty getting booze these days than dope, BECAUSE it is completely unregulated.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:02 pm 
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I was just explaining his point. I don't think it's true, though. We already have exactly what you are describing in liquor stores, so I think a similar system would work.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:06 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
Come on David. Use your head.

- You're gonna regulate it's potency...which will open a black market
- You're gonna sell it special places...which will open a black market
- You're gonna have high security...increases cost...opens a black market
- You're hassling the fuck out of people...opens a black market

You don't honestly think this proposal will eliminate the black market. I asked this before, but how on earth do you expect to control people on hard drugs? The simple fact that you want to confine them into these places, with government regulations to boot, makes the entire "we're gonna eliminate the black market" a moot point.

How is this any different from liquor stores now? You live in upstate New York. You ever buy a bottle of wine in Pennsylvania? Is it a hassle? Yes. Is there a black market? No. I'm not talking about anything more regulated than that. The costs of securing a store with a cop during business hours (and I'm not even sure that would be necessary) would be miniscule compared to the current budget for fighting the "war on drugs", and it would be paid for MANY times over just from the sales tax revenues.

The remaining black market will be nothing compared to what there is now. Seriously, for someone who can be so cold and calculating about economics when it comes to welfare and the porr, how come you can't see the overwhelming evidence that this makes financial sense?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:09 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
The remaining black market will be nothing compared to what there is now. Seriously, for someone who can be so cold and calculating about economics when it comes to welfare and the porr, how come you can't see the overwhelming evidence that this makes financial sense?


This is something I always argue about with fiscally conservative types. It seems like the only time they don't have a problem spending money is when it's for war or putting people in jail. This is something that could stop a lot of crime and make a lot of money, but because it would mean letting people use drugs, they can't stand it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Come on David. Use your head.

- You're gonna regulate it's potency...which will open a black market
- You're gonna sell it special places...which will open a black market
- You're gonna have high security...increases cost...opens a black market
- You're hassling the fuck out of people...opens a black market

You don't honestly think this proposal will eliminate the black market. I asked this before, but how on earth do you expect to control people on hard drugs? The simple fact that you want to confine them into these places, with government regulations to boot, makes the entire "we're gonna eliminate the black market" a moot point.

How is this any different from liquor stores now? You live in upstate New York. You ever buy a bottle of wine in Pennsylvania? Is it a hassle? Yes. Is there a black market? No. I'm not talking about anything more regulated than that. The costs of securing a store with a cop during business hours (and I'm not even sure that would be necessary) would be miniscule compared to the current budget for fighting the "war on drugs", and it would be paid for MANY times over just from the sales tax revenues.

The remaining black market will be nothing compared to what there is now. Seriously, for someone who can be so cold and calculating about economics when it comes to welfare and the porr, how come you can't see the overwhelming evidence that this makes financial sense?


*snickers*

You think a cop at the front door is gonna stop people with:

- bad acid trips
- bad LSD trips
- coke addicts
- heroine addicts

You don't have any relatives that are cops do you. It takes a FLEET of cops to take down a good coke addict without killing him. Didn't we talk before about digits being bitten off and such?


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