ok... here is my rant/question/vent... whatever you want to call it.

I understand that as Americans we should support our troops, regardless of whether or not we agree with the war.
Im torn..

First. I would never go over there or want any of my family and friends over there. And i understand a lot of people don't want to be in that situation. No one wants to sacrifice their loved one or themselves and that is human and understandable. These young men and woman have seen things and been in situations that i will never understand and never hope to experience... Are they brave? Beyond all shadows of doubt.

but here is my problem... the other part of me feels that these soldiers are not much more than professional hired killers. They are there to shoot and kill and feel nothing. It is not their job to question or protest the war... from what i understand... it is see, shoot, and kill the "enemy"... to me there isn't much diginity or morals to support.

I also know that not everyone in the military isn't there just to kill some arabs and fire big guns... some are there do to lacking finicial and educational means and have used the army or navy, etc. to better their own and families' lives.

So that is my thought. I support their bravery to stand up and protect us (even though i believe Iraq was and still is a 0% threat to us or anyone really.) But I can't in good conscience tie a yellow ribbon and tell everyone to support them when thousands of innocent men women and children are dead at their hands..

That's my thought. And I hope you see that I'm not some anti-american, saddam lover... just stating what is in my heart and head. Thanks for listening.
Peace.

i work in a law firm that represents huge insurance companies. there's not much dignity or morals in my job, but i work hard at what i do and succeed doing it.

these soilders are just doing the same thing. its their job, and its a goddamn scary one so i have no problem supporting them.

As far as traditional Western views go, it is not immoral to kill an armed enemy combatant, however limiting casualties to this group is nigh impossible in modern warfare, especially one being undertaken in a situation such as in Iraq. As to the unintentional deaths of noncombatants: it is quite tragic, however how can one hold the troops responsible unless marked negligence is apparent?

If they are paid killers, so be it. I can accept their existence as long as they are necessary and unless a 1984-esque world is achieved, they will be necessary and I will be happy as long as our 'hired killers' are held more accountable and more precise then 'their' hired killers. War is a sometimes necessary evil, and I'm not going to damn someone just because they do a job no one else wants to do.

Feel free to preach to me about how the first step to a peaceful world is stopping the cycle of violence personally, because I don't buy it. There are shitty people out there who will stop at nothing for personal or sectarian gain and someone needs to be there to check agression when diplomacy fails.

I don't think invading Iraq under false pretenses was a hot idea, but I certainly don't feel that pulling our troops out of Iraq right at this moment would assure a better outcome than if everyone continues to do their job and if this administration starts formulating better policy for stabilizing Iraq.

Thanks for the input... it is something I'm trying to get a different perpsective on and think more along a supportive line of thought... like i said... im not some anti american pro terrorist person and was just trying to get a different view on what i feel...

e-minor, check out this classic from the old board:

http://www.freetextures.de/rm1/viewtopic.php?t=5466

Talks about a lot of stuff, but you might find some discussion in there that might interest you.

Honestly, I know where you're coming from and wouldn't think you're anti-American for feeling this way for one minute. I struggled with the same thoughts myself throughout all of this.

Some of the conclusions that I came to are that you're actually right! Soldiers are there to follow orders, not to question them. Questioning orders and hesitating, even for a split second in a combat situation, can get you killed. Period. So there's value in that. Also, the brave men and women who signed up for our armed forces didn't sign up to fight in wars they morally agree with or thought were necessary. They signed up to go fight and protect us no matter what and when they're told to go do that, that's what they do.

I think going into Iraq in the first place was a giant mistake that betrayed the basic trust we have with our soldiers which is, don't make us go fight and risk our lives if it isn't necessary. Now I'm sure we could have another debate entirely on the reasons for going to war but to me, it was unjustified, period. Nothing that could be said here, or anywhere for that matter, would change my mind on that. So while I do support the fact that there are thousands of people over there doing the hard, dangerous work that I certainly don't want to do, it makes me really sad to think that there may be a time when we will need them so much more and we wasted their resources on this endeavor. Just my two cents.

Very well stated.



I will check this out today. Thanks

Boy, reading that really makes me miss scoobee629. Wonder whatever happened to him?

The best part, the best part is how effective the media is in creating a mental condition in which many people in America are convinced, that the actions of a miniscule percentage, represent the whole of the American military, and what it is.

I feel so sorry for people that think these things.

Do you actually think that many people in America believe the actions of those idiots at Abu Gharib (sp?) reflect the whole of the military? Because that's what I'm understanding from that post. If so, how many is "many"? A few hundred? Thousands? Half of all Americans?

Oh, I'm not talking about just Abu Grahib. I'm talking about how the media, almost as a whole, has made such a collective effort at painting the military black since Vietnam. I'm not talking about a few particular incidents, I'm talking about the whole collection from the Tet Offensive, to the Italian Reporter who was shot in Iraq. That leads to this:

- Thinking that nobody is willing to lay their life on the line for others.
- Thinking that we're just "hired killers."
- Thinking that we feel nothing
- Thinking that we are just there to shoot and kill
- Thinking that we're just mindless zombies who can't, or posess no ability to question or protest the war or what we're doing
- To see people like me as someone who exists solely to shoot and kill the "enemy"
- To insinuate that the hundreds of thousands like me are vacant of dignity and morals
- To insinuate that it's "just our job."
- To be under the impression that all we do is kill people

I don't understand how people can have such a narrow view. And I'm not talking about a narrow view on the government. I'm talking about having a narrow view on humanity. This is a direct charge at me, whether we realize it or not.

That's a pretty broad accusation aimed at a pretty general perpetrator. Then, you take the broad generalized accusation and feel personally attacked? I'm confused. Who's directly charging you? "The media as a whole"? I'm sure there are conspiratory books published about the same thing you just complained about, but they are no more important to me than a book damning the military.
The non-media member American who feels any of those emotions about the military has a broad range of life experience that led them to feel that way, just as any person who thinks that any action by the military is right and just has a broad range of life experience that makes them feel that way.

Jeez, and I got called a drama queen.

:thumbsup:
I'll post my braindroppings later

Hope you find these interesting, in case you haven't seen them yet, I think they're worth watching. (Turn the sound on).

http://www.bushflash.com/1000.html

http://www.bushflash.com/blues.html

http://www.bushflash.com/ma.html

Using "A Warm Place" from NIN for the background makes this so fucking chilling and heartbreaking.

Is there a difference between supporting our military and supporting our soldiers... Watch this...


I think it's disgraceful and pisses me off that this is where my tax money is going and makes me question my support of this

http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/spl ... inger1.mov

You might remember that we talked a few months ago about all the "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnets on cars, and how I fucking hate them SO much, but I couldn't think of a good way of protesting them or making fun of them without offending good people. I mean, the first instinct "Fuck Our Troops" ribbon is the shocking polar opposite, but I don't actually feel that way, and it would just end up offending a lot of people who have their hearts in the right place without really going after the true target, the ribbons themselves.

So I saw this one on a car the other day, and it is the perfect combination of irreverence without being offensive to the soldiers or their families.

Am I the only one that can't see it?

Cut and paste this url into your browser:

http://www.xpressmart.com/Merchant2/gra ... 1/2579.gif