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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:04 am 
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stip wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
stip wrote:
that your uncle led with the 'human right to a whole person' point really colors his answer though. I'm not necessarily saying he is wrong, but it does indicate the really powerfully felt cultural divide on this issue

He led with that, then followed with a number of objective observations informed by decades of study and practice. Of course he's not wrong.


An American pediatrician might give you a very different answer though.

So what? Plenty would, I'm sure, but I doubt they'll be as well-reasoned as the response above. I haven't seen any informed, compelling arguments in favour of circumcision - if this thread is any indication, it seems the best anyone can do is "hey, this is AMERICA, buddy - that's just how we roll!"

Is it possible for you guys to attempt to look at this without the cultural baggage that informs you that circumcision is normal? Looking at the issue objectively, I can't see how any intelligent person can come to a conclusion other than it's a damaging and barbaric procedure.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:09 am 
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You realize that you are beating your head against a brick wall here, yes?


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:50 am 
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spenno wrote:
stip wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
stip wrote:
that your uncle led with the 'human right to a whole person' point really colors his answer though. I'm not necessarily saying he is wrong, but it does indicate the really powerfully felt cultural divide on this issue

He led with that, then followed with a number of objective observations informed by decades of study and practice. Of course he's not wrong.


An American pediatrician might give you a very different answer though.

So what? Plenty would, I'm sure, but I doubt they'll be as well-reasoned as the response above. I haven't seen any informed, compelling arguments in favour of circumcision - if this thread is any indication, it seems the best anyone can do is "hey, this is AMERICA, buddy - that's just how we roll!"

Is it possible for you guys to attempt to look at this without the cultural baggage that informs you that circumcision is normal? Looking at the issue objectively, I can't see how any intelligent person can come to a conclusion other than it's a damaging and barbaric procedure.



I'm not that emotionally invested in this. I'm actually most interested in where the strength and depth of feeling is coming from on the against side (you in particular).

And what Platy's uncle said is fine, but it is hardly a game changing statement.

1. he called people who circumcised their kids idiots (which is a step down from child abusers I suppose)
2. he talked about circumcision violating the basic human right of the child to a whole body (I haven't heard that one befor)
3. Says health benefits are minimal (cleanliness)
4. there are disadvantages (also related to cleanliness)
5. It is a painful procedure
6. it makes sex worse for women.

All reasonable points, but hardly going to be an ephihinal moment for anyone engaged in this debate.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:38 am 
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stip wrote:
1. he called people who circumcised their kids idiots (which is a step down from child abusers I suppose)

Come on now. That's not what he said.

My awesome uncle wrote:
Anyone who does the reading on the topic, and still chooses to circumcise their child, I would be tempted to call an idiot (religious reasons aside).


The implication being that a lot of people don't read up on the topic. They're not necessarily idiots, but misinformed. He's a pediatrician for the Canadian embassy in Colombia, as well as running his own private practice, so I think he sees both sides of the argument pretty often.

But you are right, it's not a game-changer. The reason I wrote to him in the first place wasn't to be like "SEE? WE'RE RIGHT", but just to find out if the procedure was especially painful to the child. Everything else he said was just a bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:47 am 
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i don't think you've been unreasonable in this discussion, platy.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:51 am 
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my cousin is a pediatrician. She is jewish, which may color her answer. I asked her, outside of any religious reason for doing so, whether she would advise parents to circumcise their children, and why/why not

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:13 pm 
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And....?


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:46 pm 
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i shall report back here as soon as she responds.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:13 pm 
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You should really use punctuation in your posts, then it wouldn't appear that you just hit "submit" mid-sentence.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:38 am 
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All the detractors seem to completely disregard the HIV aspect. Weren't there several studies that came to similar conclusions that it resulted in substantially decreased HIV transmission? Or is that just Jewish/ Muslim/ American propoganda?


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:57 am 
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simple schoolboy wrote:
All the detractors seem to completely disregard the HIV aspect.

Not really.
Quote:
It's a simple matter of logic. Circumcised or otherwise, having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive is not a good idea. The fact that circumcised cocks have slightly less of a chance to develop the disease is only common sense. Same with any diseases. But this wouldn't be an issue if people stopped having unprotected sex with those who are HIV positive. That's like saying a helmet should be surgically attached onto your kid's cranium upon birth on the odd chance that they should grow up to become skateboarders.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:02 am 
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If I recall correctly, this guy claims those studies are bogus:

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:04 am 
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This all points to the same conclusion, which is that circumcision is unnecessary. According to that study MiB posted earlier, there's 8% less of a chance of my son becoming HIV positive if he is circumcised and having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive. So we could use education to deal with the issue, or have him go through an excruciatingly painful procedure to remove a body part. That 8% decreased risk doesn't really sway me in the latter direction.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:08 am 
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theplatypus wrote:
This all points to the same conclusion, which is that circumcision is unnecessary. According to that study MiB posted earlier, there's 8% less of a chance of my son becoming HIV positive if he is circumcised and having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive. So we could use education to deal with the issue, or have him go through an excruciatingly painful procedure to remove a body part. That 8% decreased risk doesn't really sway me in the latter direction.

Furthermore, there's no justification for the procedure being done at such a young age if the reason is to prevent HIV transmission: it would make a lot more sense for it to be something an adult made an informed choice about, rather than a decision forced upon them without their consent.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:12 am 
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Well, unless you are in one of those high risk populations that do a terrible job of not getting AIDS. For most people, its not enough of a factor to play into this decision, no. But to say that the claim that circumcision decreases HIV transmission is a massive Jewy conspiracy... You've gotta wonder whats going on with this guy, and those who share his views.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:16 am 
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simple schoolboy wrote:
Well, unless you are in one of those high risk populations that do a terrible job of not getting AIDS. For most people, its not enough of a factor to play into this decision, no. But to say that the claim that circumcision decreases HIV transmission is a massive Jewy conspiracy... You've gotta wonder whats going on with this guy, and those who share his views.

Well then. It appears we agree.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:02 am 
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theplatypus wrote:
This all points to the same conclusion, which is that circumcision is unnecessary. According to that study MiB posted earlier, there's 8% less of a chance of my son becoming HIV positive if he is circumcised and having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive. So we could use education to deal with the issue, or have him go through an excruciatingly painful procedure to remove a body part. That 8% decreased risk doesn't really sway me in the latter direction.



I've witnessed a few circumcisions and I'm sure it is painful, but the kids are fine within a few minutes

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:16 pm 
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theplatypus wrote:
Quote:
It's a simple matter of logic. Circumcised or otherwise, having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive is not a good idea. But this wouldn't be an issue if people stopped having unprotected sex with those who are HIV positive. That's like saying a helmet should be surgically attached onto your kid's cranium upon birth on the odd chance that they should grow up to become skateboarders.


Is that your quote? If so, I'm not sure it contributes much, outside of "unprotected sex" being a bad idea regardless of HIV status. Of course, I'm sure even you, with your wonderful upbringing, has given/received unprotected oral sex. Of the people living with HIV, 25% don't know they have HIV. Those 25% are responsible for ~50% of new HIV infections. How well do you think you've known each of your partners' sexual history? Are you 100% sure? If there were an HIV vaccine available, and you knew your son/daughter would probably follow the same sexual path as you, would you encourage them to get it? Can your uncle please provide the study which concludes that the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the infant anatomy? No doubt it is painful, but I'm really curious where this data comes from.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:18 pm 
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track12 wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
Quote:
It's a simple matter of logic. Circumcised or otherwise, having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive is not a good idea. But this wouldn't be an issue if people stopped having unprotected sex with those who are HIV positive. That's like saying a helmet should be surgically attached onto your kid's cranium upon birth on the odd chance that they should grow up to become skateboarders.


Is that your quote? If so, I'm not sure it contributes much, outside of "unprotected sex" being a bad idea regardless of HIV status. Of course, I'm sure even you, with your wonderful upbringing, has given/received unprotected oral sex. Of the people living with HIV, 25% don't know they have HIV. Those 25% are responsible for ~50% of new HIV infections. How well do you think you've known each of your partners' sexual history? Are you 100% sure? If there were an HIV vaccine available, and you knew your son/daughter would probably follow the same sexual path as you, would you encourage them to get it? Can your uncle please provide the study which concludes that the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the infant anatomy? No doubt it is painful, but I'm really curious where this data comes from.

Wait a minute, is that how you see infant circumcision? As an HIV vaccine? Because it's really not. The risk reduction is minimal, if you believe the studies posted earlier in this thread. There's a few different studies, with conflicting results, but most of them seem to put the risk reduction rate below 15%. What I am saying-- and reiterated just two posts ago-- is that the negatives of performing this procedure on a kid outweigh the perceived positives.

You raise a good point, there's no way to ever be sure of the sexual history of your partner, even if they think they're being honest about it. But circumcision is far from a foolproof method of preventing the spread of STDs. So very far from it. The advantages are so minimal that I wouldn't be swayed to make that decision for my kid. If anything, as spenno points out, let them make that leap when the time comes. You know, when they're old enough to consent to the procedure. The fact that this option doesn't seem to register in the mind of most supporters of infant circumcision tells me that this debate isn't really about health, but about tradition. stip has already admitted as much in this thread, and I imagine a lot more of you would as well, if you were being honest with yourselves. We can throw around numbers and marginal decreased health risks and strenuous arguments, but at the very heart of it, I reckon for most of y'all it's just about tradition. And that's a weak fucking reason to cut off a body part that's not yours.

About the last part of your post-- I like how you barge into a debate, arms swinging wildly, without much of a clear point. I'm not qualified to answer your question, but I will ask my uncle next time we chat.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:35 pm 
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stip wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
This all points to the same conclusion, which is that circumcision is unnecessary. According to that study MiB posted earlier, there's 8% less of a chance of my son becoming HIV positive if he is circumcised and having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive. So we could use education to deal with the issue, or have him go through an excruciatingly painful procedure to remove a body part. That 8% decreased risk doesn't really sway me in the latter direction.



I've witnessed a few circumcisions and I'm sure it is painful, but the kids are fine within a few minutes


This is really your argument?

:?


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