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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:52 pm 
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no. I don't know that i have much of an argument. I do have a sense that the anti-circumcision rhetoric in this thread seems incredibly overblown to me.

There is an undercurrent accusation of circumcision=torture in some of these more recent posts (probably some of the older ones too. I haven't read this whole thread). No one wants to submit their child to unnecessary pain. And I don't want to sound overly cavalier about this. But it is hardly the end of the world, and probably not the most painful thing many children experience.

I believe that topical anesthetics are also used to dull the pain

From kidshealth.org
Quote:
The Pros and Cons

On the plus side, circumcised infants are less likely to develop urinary tract infections (UTIs), especially in the first year of life. UTIs are about 10 times more common in uncircumcised compared with circumcised infants. However, even with this increased risk of UTI, only 1% or less of uncircumcised males will be affected.

Circumcised men may also be at lower risk for penile cancer, although the disease is rare in both circumcised and uncircumcised males. Some studies indicate that the procedure might offer an additional line of defense against sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including HIV.

Penile problems, such as irritation, inflammation, and infection, are more common in uncircumcised males. It's easier to keep a circumcised penis clean, although uncircumcised boys can learn how to clean beneath the foreskin once the foreskin becomes retractable (usually some time before age 5).

Some people claim that circumcision either lessens or heightens the sensitivity of the tip of the penis, decreasing or increasing sexual pleasure later in life. But neither of these subjective findings has been proved.

Although circumcision appears to have some medical benefits, it also carries potential risks — as does any surgical procedure. These risks are small, but you should be aware of both the possible advantages and the problems before you make your decision. Complications of newborn circumcision are uncommon, occurring in between 0.2% to 3% of cases. Of these, the most frequent are minor bleeding and local infection, both of which can be easily treated by your doctor.

Perhaps one of the hardest parts of the decision to circumcise is accepting that the procedure can be painful. In the past, it wasn't commonplace to provide pain relief for babies being circumcised, but because studies have indicated that it benefits the infant to receive anesthesia, most doctors will now provide it.



Based on what we've seen here there does not seem to be very much compelling medical evidence either for or against this procedure. Some minor benefits, and some minor drawbacks. This really seems like it is almost entirely a cultural argument (again, look at what Platy's uncle led with) masquerading as a scientific one.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:45 pm 
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theplatypus...I didn't want to quote you or else this post would be too lengthy (which it already is). But...

Whoah horsey. Arms swinging wildly? I didn't even register an opinion. You bring in your uncle’s opinion and think it is gospel because he is a pediatrician. I could throw a dart and find a pediatrician who has different opinions. This is also the internet, so putting full stock into what someone’s uncle said is normally not the basis for confident conclusions.

I’m simply asking for data to support his conclusion about “most sensitive part of the infant body” and that circumcised sex is better sex. To me, I am hearing a nice degree of conjecture there. As far as consent, there are a lot of ways in which parents can f up a kid forever, but I do not know of any strong data that infant circumcision results in any sort of long-lasting emotional or mental toll. And I certainly never equated an effective HIV vaccine to circumcision, but a vaccine is one example of something you do to a child without their consent, and there are certainly outspoken critics which hold the very strong opinion that vaccines may do harm. Finally, your “don’t have unprotected sex with HIV + people” comment, as you’ve acknowledged, is not entirely legit.

My main point is that although you are correct that the procedure in most cases is done purely on the basis of culture or tradition, there are some (albeit very minor) benefits associated with it. Thus, I think the “against” arguments that hold the most water are those that factually identify some risk, any risk, associated with the procedure. There is a possibility of the procedure going wrong, and it can certainly be argued whether the miniscule benefits in an American supercede those (also small) risks. But this other stuff (Most sensitive area on earth! Consent! The magical sex!) is pretty weak.

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Last edited by track12 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Since the thread has been bumped, I have not seen anyone argue that circumcision isn't almost entirely cosmetic, with the exception of Man in Black.


Last edited by Skitch Patterson on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:15 pm 
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track12 wrote:
Whoah horsey. Arms swinging wildly? I didn't even register an opinion. You bring in your uncle’s opinion and think it is gospel because he is a pediatrician. I could throw a dart and find a pediatrician who has different opinions. This is also the internet, so putting full stock into what someone’s uncle said is normally not the basis for confident conclusions.


I'm about to head into a meeting, so right now I'll quickly respond to this part of the post, because I don't want my words to be misinterpreted. I'll come back to the rest of it later. My "arms swinging wildly" comment was about the fact that you threw like 3 different points at me in the span of a short paragraph that had an accusatory tone, as well as a quip about my "wonderful upbringing". It sounded snarky, so I snarked back. About taking my uncle's words as gospel truth, I addressed that point earlier when I conceded to stip that his comments were not a game-changer. I was simply trying to find out if it was a painful procedure.

stip, I agree with you, it's a cultural divide. But I believe the burden of proof for circumcision lies on the shoulders of its supporters. I believe a "stalemate" effectively leans in favor of the opposing side. Let's also remember that countries and cultures who adhere to circumcision are a small and ever-decreasing minority that just happens to be disproportionately represented in this message board, and therefore in this debate. Just throwing those ideas out there without the time to order them. There are more points to be made. I'll be back later.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:33 pm 
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theplatypus wrote:
track12 wrote:
Whoah horsey. Arms swinging wildly? I didn't even register an opinion. You bring in your uncle’s opinion and think it is gospel because he is a pediatrician. I could throw a dart and find a pediatrician who has different opinions. This is also the internet, so putting full stock into what someone’s uncle said is normally not the basis for confident conclusions.


I'm about to head into a meeting, so right now I'll quickly respond to this part of the post, because I don't want my words to be misinterpreted. I'll come back to the rest of it later. My "arms swinging wildly" comment was about the fact that you threw like 3 different points at me in the span of a short paragraph that had an accusatory tone, as well as a quip about my "wonderful upbringing". It sounded snarky, so I snarked back. About taking my uncle's words as gospel truth, I addressed that point earlier when I conceded to stip that his comments were not a game-changer. I was simply trying to find out if it was a painful procedure.

stip, I agree with you, it's a cultural divide. But I believe the burden of proof for circumcision lies on the shoulders of its supporters. I believe a "stalemate" effectively leans in favor of the opposing side. Let's also remember that countries and cultures who adhere to circumcision are a small and ever-decreasing minority that just happens to be disproportionately represented in this message board, and therefore in this debate. Just throwing those ideas out there without the time to order them. There are more points to be made. I'll be back later.



In the event that there is no long term serious harm, or any enduring consequence of note, and someone feels a strong religious/cultural/social reason to do so I'm not sure why the burden of proof is on the person who does it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:03 pm 
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track12 wrote:
But this other stuff ... Consent! ... is pretty weak.

Uh, I think that one's a pretty huge deal.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:05 pm 
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stip wrote:
In the event that there is no long term serious harm, or any enduring consequence of note, and someone feels a strong religious/cultural/social reason to do so I'm not sure why the burden of proof is on the person who does it.

Since they're the one who wants to chop part of someone's body off?


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:48 pm 
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spenno wrote:
track12 wrote:
But this other stuff ... Consent! ... is pretty weak.

Uh, I think that one's a pretty huge deal.


Good for you. Again, I'm not too concerned about consent with my kids. I'm their father, they have no say in the matter of what decisions I choose when they are infants. Of course, I love them more than myself X 100, so I'm not going to do something I think will result in significant detriment.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:59 pm 
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here is the response from my cousin:

Quote:
I can imagine this can be a heated debate! As a pediatrician, I take the stand that although there are a few health benefits to circumcision, I believe it is really a social and cultural/ religious decision since the health benefits are minimal. For the most part, I think the son should look like the dad. Most of my patients do not ask me my opinion because they know what they want to do from a social/cultural/religious standpoint before they even meet me! I have yet to have an "undecided" patient!

Health benefits-
Less urinary tract infections
Circumcised penis easier to keep clean
Prevent foreskin infections
Slight decreased risk of STD's
Decreased risk of penile cancer
but penile cancer is so rare.
Phimosis is when the foreskin doesn't retract and then the patient might need circumcisiom
Uncircumcised patients can have a paraphimosis which is extremely painful. The foreskin gets stuck in the retracted position and squeezes the shaft.

Risks of circumcision
Bad/Botched circumcision and need for re-do!
Infection post-op- never seen/rare
Bleeding
? Decreases Sexual pleasure

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:00 am 
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has there been no discussion in this thread about how creepy the whole religious tradition associated with this is?

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:23 am 
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stip wrote:
has there been no discussion in this thread about how creepy the whole religious tradition associated with this is?

Because it is apparent to everyone that Jews are gross.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:25 am 
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Skitch Patterson wrote:
stip wrote:
has there been no discussion in this thread about how creepy the whole religious tradition associated with this is?

Because it is apparent to everyone that Jews are gross.

Say what you want about the Jews, but at least they don't have weird looking dicks.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:26 am 
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The use of exclamation points by Stip's cousin may be more offensive than spenno's statements.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:04 am 
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I can ignore those. I hate when older people who are learning to text end up sounding like teenage girls.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:14 am 
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A few points:

-Teaching your son to use condoms will reduce the chances of std's about 10x more than circumsizing him.

-We have a foreskin for a reason. We evolved to have one, just like like most things on the human body. Yes there are some things like the appendix that are now unnecessary, but they're few and far between. If you think it looks better and might reduce ear infections by 8%, would you be willing to nip off your child's earlobe? Why not?

-people have repeatedly implied they're ugly if uncut. But they look the same during sex for most everybody. Just because you wear a hoodie doesn't mean you look like kenny from south park all day. Think about this. Like I said before, I have had plenty of sex and blowjobs and NEVER had a problem. And to the rest of the world (and an increasing number of Americans), the other way looks weird.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:22 am 
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The reason for a foreskin, if we can devine any at all is probably the unsanitary conditions that result when one frollicks about without any clothes.

That being said, it probably doesn't matter that much either way, unless of course you live in sub saharan africa where condoms are apparently unheard of and that 15% difference can make the difference between societal cohesion and total breakdown.

Also, if I learned anything from my Africana studies instructor, its that the term "sub-saharan" is racist because we cannot differentiate between the rather distinct arab north africans and black africans, despite the large number of military conflicts that are based on these racial and cultural boundaries.

I appologize for my lack of sensitivity.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:55 am 
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The prevalence of dry sex is probably a bigger factor in Africa than circumcision, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:19 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
The prevalence of dry sex is probably a bigger factor in Africa than circumcision, anyway.


Yeah... They should probably reconsider that.

But who are we to judge? They have a rich culture, with a proud history.


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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:39 pm 
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You need a NEJM subscription to see the video, but there is an article on this in the newest New England Journal of Medicine online issue. It is not necessarily meant to be a pro-con, but they do summarize their thoughts below. They do perform a nerve block for the procedure.

"Circumcision is performed for a variety of religious and cultural reasons, often at the request of the parents. The American Academy of Pediatrics has concluded that current scientific evidence indicating potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision is not sufficient to justify routine neonatal circumcision.1 Some of the medical benefits of circumcision are a lower risk of urinary tract infections and a lower risk of transmission of human papillomavirus and human immunodeficiency virus.2-4 Circumcision may prevent phimosis, paraphimosis, and infections of the foreskin and glans such as balanitis, balanoposthitis, and balanitis xerotica obliterans. Proper hygiene can also reduce the risk of these conditions."

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NE ... ?query=TOC

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 Post subject: Re: The Fight Over Circumcision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:05 pm 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
stip wrote:
Quote:
How Do I Care for an Uncircumcised Penis?

If you're not circumcised, you will need a couple extra steps to keep the penis clean:

First, gently pull the foreskin backwards.
Then, clean the skin underneath with soap and water.

You should do this every day.


and who has the time for that?

AL

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