I like that Spenno is serious about my parents being child abusers, but at least he was kidding about the punch in the balls.

I think we should change all the custom ranks of fathers of sons who chose circumcision to "Child Abuser," so that society can be made aware of our heinous crimes.

No problem!

My grandfather was also a child abuser by this yardstick. He was also kind of a jerk, so you know, no biggie. I think it's funny that Skitch is so outraged by my use of that term, I think it's perfectly valid in the circumstances. The dictionary definition of child abuse is thus: "the physical or emotional or sexual mistreatment of children." It doesn't necessarily encompass all three and I think circumcision certainly qualifies as a moderate form of physical abuse and has, in some cases, resulted in genuine emotional distress. There's no implication in that meaning that it refers to an act specifically intended to cause harm.

The thing that sits most uneasily with me is the issue regarding consent; you're undertaking an irreversible and damaging procedure on someone's body without their consent and for no immediate medical benefit. The future possible benefits in regards to STDs and AIDS, as small as I believe them to be for most people in a modern Western society, could still be addressed by allowing people to come to their own decision on circumcision as a fully-informed adult.

First of all, not outraged. Offended. Your opinions are generally one of the few on the board I legitimately respect, and to see you make accusatory statements like "child abuse" for things that are, at this point, a cultural difference is pretty disturbing to me personally.

I called the practice itself a form of child abuse and I stand by that. It's more than a mere 'cultural difference', since I think it's harmful, of limited benefit and of questionable consistency with the application of law and medical ethics in other contexts. I'm certainly not trying to offend you on purpose, but I find it a troubling and fairly horrifying practice.

You can't condemn the act without condemning those who willfully choose to engage in it. Your honesty is appreciated.

How's this: I understand how your cultural background is going to make it seem more acceptable, but that doesn't mean I think it's excusable. Even if I grew up in the US, I'm pretty sure I would still have thought about the issue objectively (or at least attempted to) and come to the conclusion that it's a bad idea.

I'm not sure what you want, for me to decide that I don't personally support it but it's ultimately up to a parent to decide? Hell no, that's one of the key issues I raised from my last few posts: I don't think a parent has the right to make that kind of permanent decision, any more than they could decide to lop off a kid's arm or eyeball for some quirky cultural reason.

You've made it abundantly clear. Thanks.

and you really see this as equivalent, do you?

Wait, is spenno surprised that a parent is offended by being called a child abuser?

Haven't read the whole thread. But if I was never circumcised, word would have gotten around, none of the sl*ts in high school would've banged me, then I would have turned into an angry serial r*pist or something like that.

Times have changed. Almost none of the people I know get their child cut now.

Skitch is the only one who decided that I'm calling him a 'child abuser'. As I said to him, I think the act itself is an act of child abuse and I'm not about to say I'm only joking or exaggerating. I think I can condemn the act itself as a form of abuse without damning the parents as child abusers, Skitch disagrees obviously. I think it's the entire society, including the medical profession, who bear some responsibility.

I think I'm honestly quite surprised that anyone could think it's an exaggeration or a courting of controversy to call circumcision 'child abuse'. Like I pointed out earlier, non-medically necessary circumcision is banned in public hospitals in Australia - it's clearly something we've decided is unacceptable. You can still get it done as a private patient for the time being, but I wonder if it will be thoroughly banned in twenty or thirty years, even if only to avoid future liability.

I'm really baffled by your logic here. If you're saying circumcision is child abuse, then you're saying people who circumcise their children are child abusers.




I don't think you can.

I really doubt you think of yourself as a criminal, Peter

edit: nevermind

No, I'm really not.

platy used the word 'mutilation' - is he calling those parents mutilators of children?

Yes.

Yes, but if i know one thing, there is no sense in arguing nuance of the english language with Jorge, because more often than not he is correct on the technical usage/meaning . (By "more often than not" i mean always). Of course i think the implication "mutilation" is too strong, and i said that earlier.

yeah Spenno, you pretty much did call my parents child abusers.