Geronimo Vs Bin Laden

Similarities are kinda scary...


Geronimo was viewed as an outlaw / terrorist, murderer. Last of the great Indian Leaders to refuse to acknowledge the US. Went on the run, and avoided TWO countries by hiding out in mountain ranges.

Geronimo, and all Indians for that matter, fought the US, simply to protect their lands, and their way of lifes, their beliefs, their God. Out numbered, and out gunned... they did best with what they had.

The whites, wanted the land, for many reasons, mainly resources such as coal, gold, timber.... They called the Natives "Godless Savages, who kill at will, steal and cause pain and suffering to those living in peace on the new frontier" along with Redskins and other colorful names, Which helped gain public support in the governments over running of the "wild wild west" And they told the Natives they needed to convert to the White mans religion, for that was the only way to survive.

A peace offer was made to Geronimo... 2 years in a Florida prison... When he finally surrendered, Him, his rebel band, and ALL of the Apache's of his tribe, INCLUDING the scouts who served in the Army and helped track Geronimo down, were ALL sent to prison. 22 Years later Geronimo died, and was NEVER Allowed back on Apache land... (wow, a promise unkept from a government, imagine that)

In todays history books, the truth is told about the wrongs done to the Native Americans, and Geronimo is viewed as an American HERO oddly enough. The Native Americans fighting spirits, to stand up for what they believed in, for their honor, for their way of life... is what America stands for? But just a short hundred+ years ago... Native Americans were called "terrorists" for doing this, and killed.







In todays world, we have Osama Bin Laden, viewed as an outlaw / terrorist, murderer. Terrorist leader who refuses to acknowledge any US formed government in the Middle east. Is on the run, and avoiding the US, Afghan, Pakistan, UK, and rest of the Allied force, by hiding out in mountain ranges (hes actually out doing Geronimo especially considering todays high tech weapons...)

Bin Ladens main source of recruitment, is to say that the evil West will corroupt their way of life, they want to protect their way of life... out nummered, out gunned, out jet'd, out tanked, out nuked, they resort to the only kind of warfare that they have a fighting chance with... THEY WANT US OUT of their land, they want our influences, our ways of life, OFF THEIR LANDS (hhmmm that sounds about the same as the Native Americans as well?)

We want oil... plan and simple... have to protect our oil supply. We call them terrorists, because they are not fighting a war with Tanks and Airplanes... We call them godless, or say theyre religion is insuperior to our great Christian/Western Religions. We call them Towell Heads, and other colorful terms to try to show they are lesser humans then us... And we tell them they must set up a democratic government in order to survive in this world today... (again, the west downgrades the enemy, and tells them they have to change their way of life...)






Now being Native American (only 1/16th though) and loving Native American history... Im in no way saying Osama Bin Laden and Geronimo should be compaired... The things the White man did to the Native Americans, is far different then what we are doing in the Middle East.....

BUT

Both are fighting for their ways of life... for what they perseave as their freedoms...
Geronimo was called a terrorists... he killed woman and children, and many whites... and today, is viewed as a true American Hero...

The longer Bin Laden stays on the run...
the greater his legend will become to the next generation of, what we call "Terrorists"




How bout ending this war... and start working at PEACE

The age old adage about freedom fighters and terrorists is given a nice spin here, I've never thought about it in context of Native Americans before.

...but the differences are fundamental...and simple, quite frankly.

You might have better luck with this post over at Synergy, they'll probably sticky it.

Elaborate, for those of us who are thinking about other things.

Wow, yer a tricky lil' devil.
You caught me, the situations are EXACTLY the same.

About the only way these situations are the same is that Geronimo and Osama are like, is that they both prefer to hide in mountains.

And Man in Black, that wasn't meant to be a counter argument. My son is sick and I'm posting during his frequent, tiny naps. I can't sell myself on analyzing this odd analogy.

Osama and Geronimo dont have as much in common...

as the way the public is viewing them (Well Geronimo then, Bin Laden now)

If you look at the way the White/European/First americans viewed the Native Americans, Its much the same mind set that many current Westerners view all middle easterners.

"only good indian is a dead indian"
or
"why dont we just go over there and nuke all of them"





Either way... Geronimo and the Natives were offered peace Treaties...
Do ya think GW's ever gonna balls up to that move? and negotiate peace with "terrorists" ?

I'm gonna elect someone else with more time and patience debunk this bunk.

In almost NO WAY are these two instances of history at all even remotely close for comparison. Except the hiding in mountains part. In every aspect they are completely different.

Both are fighting against the US (for different reasons)
The US has labeled both a terrorist.
The US spin doctors painted all Natives as "wild savages" back in the day.
And in todays world... almost always fail to point out that 90%+ of Muslims are peaceful... painting a picture of "Islamic extremists"

Instead of leaving the Native Americans land, we killed them / kicked them off, and took it.

Instead of leaving the Middle East, we invaided, over threw governments, and are working on killing off / capturing the terrorists.



and of course both Geronimo and Bin Laden are on the run, hiding in Mountains, out numbered by suprieror forces.


theres no bunk in any of that.
and History is repeating itself, over, and over, and over, and over.....

war is not the answer

Honestly, you're just being silly now...using cliches is not a very effective way of constructing an argument, or whatever it is you're constructing here.

I've never met anyone who felt that we should "just go over there and nuke all of them". There's 8000 users on this board, I'd be willing to bet that, oh, ZERO feel that we should "just go over there and nuke all of them".

About the only possible valid comparison I see is that a certain segment of muslims revere bin Laden in the same way that the Apaches revered Geronimo...but I'd suggest those muslims are a bit detached with reality.

It's really quite simple; Geronimo's resistance was understandable, justifiable, bin Laden's crusade is...not.

I still say it'd be an interesting comparison if you posted this over at Synergy...they'd probably throw flowers at your feet.

Well, they were both human beings too, and had long hair. Not a good point.



One was out of racism. One is because the other is actually a terrorist.



You aboslutely KNOW that this is false. Who's saying that? Back it up. Even Michael Savage acknowledges that the majority of Islamic people are good at heart. Even acknowledges that it is simply a hijacked, but otherwise wholesome religion. Sean Hannity, just this week used the 90% figure (from Pew research, and the specific question was "Was Osama and Al Queda justified in their attacks on 9-11, it was a little less than 90%). It's just that, he went through the populations of the Islamic world and you know what? What's left over the wholesome muslims is a lot of people that support and justify terrorism. How many times has Bush and other spokespeople come out and said that the majority of Islamic people are good? When, if ever, has anybody other than GodHatesFags.com NOT pointed out that the majority of Muslims are NOT extremists?



Two TOTALLY different cases here. What we did to the Indians was US Policy, it was driven in racism and xenophobia. It was driven by ideas closely associated with European imperialism. The case in the middle east is completely different. We're not having forced marches of Islamic people from Baghdad to Basra so we can build condo's and put up settlements. You also fall short when you say we took the natives and killed them ALL of. When it comes to terrorism, we are targeting TERRORISTS. You also fail to mention that we drove Indian's onto tiny reservations, but in Iraq and Afghanistan we have removed vicious tyrants, and Islamo-facism and instead replaced it with democracy and freedom. Although not perfect, a FAR bigger improvement from the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. We killed little Indian girls. We gave schools to little girls in Afghanistan. Furthermore, I doubt we'll have anything other than a couple thousand troops in Afghanistan when it's all said and done, and it's elected government will ultimately control that land. Meanwhile in Iraq, the day too will come when we all but leave there land as well.



And Geronimo is NOTHING like OBL. OBL is all about death and destruction and that's it. He's about his own fame, and his own name, and his own money. Geronimo was about his peoples very existance and the world of Islam is not in any jeopardy of that. Osama fears freedom of choice. Geronimo feared genocide and the lives of his people.

The two are so unequivicol that it almost makes my head spin. You have to stretch this into such broad generalizations to make it work that it's almost numbing to the senses, and completely devoid of critical thought.

Homey was a badass.

Owned

lemme guess... Cherokee on your mothers side?

Owned my ass

Geronimo didnt care about his people...
it was his actions that got the apache nation sent to JAIL

Majority of Apaches went peacefully to the reservation, Geronimo and about 38 others went off to the Mountians. When the peace treaty was made with Geronimo, It was only then that he realized his actions were going to affect ALL Apaches... (If he continued on his quest for freedom, the others would pay, so he gave in)

In which case the US turned around, and sent the apaches to prison anyway.

and Heres the lil something that people are over looking here...

100 years from now, when US is no longer the super power. When the "White/Western religion" Is no longer the main religion/way of thinking for us. It is quiet possible, that Bin Laden, and others, will be viewed as the people who took down the mighty super power, and made the world safer... (yes, thats reaching... BUT im betting not to many white boys would have thought Geronimo would end up a hero back in 1890 either)

The point is this, in the late 1800's, the Natives saw the writing on the wall, if they continued to fight, they would all die. The Whites saw the same... both sides made peace.



What the US is doing today?
We arnt making peace? We are escalating things.

Korea can not test missles...
but the US and Japan can test one just incase a war breaks out...

Iran cant have nuclear weapons...
But we sure as hell can...

We can kick people out of our country / throw them in jail if we think they are up to no good / terrorist...
And if someone wants us out of their country? WE SEND IN THE MARINES.


The White/European/American expansion world domination that was around back in the days of Columbus, and the other sailors who found America, is still alive today. Its just masked under the flag of democracy...

Just ask the Palestines what happens if they elect a political party that we dont like...

We dont have to send the Iraq's off to the reservations to get what we want? We just have to give them a form of government, that will work with us, to get what we want...

Todays free thinkers are too smart / and involved to let another Wounded Knee to happen, or Sand Creek. Hell, were all over the military if just a couple peaceful Iraqi civilian's die. The people in charge arnt dumb, they know this...

Dig a little deeper, and youll see, nothing has changed.


And, YES IVE heard TONS of people say "Lets just nuke em and get it over with" go work at a gas station, and I guarantee the first day gas jumps 10 cents, YOU WILL HEAR some sort of racial slurred comment towards "Middle Easterners / Iraqis / Muslims" We have a Marthon station in town, thats run by a couple of Arabs... Ive heard people say they wont get gas there, FOR THAT REASON.

Racism is around folks... dont be blind to it...




and my 1/16th is not Cherokee. Its Stockbridge-Munsee of the Mohican Nation

No, you basically got owned. The parallels you are trying to draw aren't there.

Everyone wants peace, but that doesn't make your comparison valid.

Fuck it... im gonna stop right here, I had a long rant typed up... but this really breaks down what im saying. And If you cant see this... you truely are blinded by the big picture, and a believer of what the media / government is telling you.



Take yourself out of our safe lil worlds, and put yourself in the other sides shoes.

Can any of you sitting there telling me im owned, really picture Geronimo being against what Bin Laden is doing?

Geronimo went on the run, because the white man invaded his land, killed his people, and destroyed his way of life.

Bin Laden rose to power, because the Western Culture was invaiding their land, destroying their way of life. He stood up, and gave a voice to those hard core radical extremists, and theyve rallied to his cause.

And the thing that really scares me... Is i do not see a peace offer ever being made, because of the word "terrorists" and "we do not negotiate with terrorists"

If Bin Laden is not cought / Found... his cause grows stronger... and the cycle just continues on...



So anyway, Im not getting owned at all...
the parallels are there, people are just refusing to see
history repeating itself,
and once again, the white/western powers are going to force there ways upon another area, until we have global domination. Its all about securing our interests, to insure our places.

If we were worried about saving lifes, we would be in Africa
If we wanted to make peace... We wouldnt have "first strike" options
People re-elected GDubs because he was handling the war, but in no way is he bringing peace to this world.


GDubs says "if we feel threats, we will strike first"
names off countries. The min these countries try to arm themselves in fear of being attacked... (which GDubs gave them) We put sanctions on them and threats... North Korea cant have ANY missles, yet we have one for just about ever capital in the world... and can test them at will...

What im seeing, What im saying, scares me
and i hope in 100 years im wrong...

people (you, me, everyone reading this, especially those dis-agreeing not seeing it) really need to start not only reading history, but learning from it, learning from our mistakes/their mistakes, everyones mistakes.

read the history of the Goths once... and see what can happen if you hold a small band of people down... at the time, they were viewed as terrorists / barbarians... we now call them a surpressed people, and say the Romans got what was coming to them... (and everyone else in their paths)[/quote]

. I'm with LW and Man in Black on this

Geronimo is an American hero?