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 Post subject: Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:52 pm 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/27/sport ... ei=5087%0A

Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team

By BILL FINLEY
Published: July 27, 2006
A New Jersey high school football coach has won his legal fight to take part in pregame prayer with his players.

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Jack Howard for The New York Times
Marcus Borden, the football coach at East Brunswick (N.J.) High School, was the winner in court.
Judge Dennis Cavanaugh of the United States District Court for New Jersey ruled Tuesday that Marcus Borden, the coach at East Brunswick High School, can bow his head and bend down on one knee during student-led prayers. Last fall, he had been barred from doing so by the East Brunswick Board of Education, which contended that Borden’s actions were illegal because he is a public employee.

Asserting that his constitutional rights were being violated, Borden sued, starting a court battle that involved church-state issues.

Cavanaugh ruled that Borden’s pregame actions were not the same as praying. “Tradition plays a part, and the overall actions and responsibilities of a football coach should be considered,” Cavanaugh said, according to The Associated Press. “For the coach, who is looked at as the glue to hold all of this together and foster team spirit, to not be allowed to participate in these traditions — even in the passive way — just doesn’t seem right.”

In his suit, Borden asked to be permitted to bow his head and bend a knee while players took part in a voluntary prayer, something he said had been a part of East Brunswick High School football since before he was named head coach 23 years ago.

“The judge granted all of the relief that we requested,” said Borden’s lawyer, Ron Riccio. “We didn’t ask for more than we needed. What the decision does is give some content to the meaning of a coach participating with his players in team prayer. Before this decision, no one was quite sure what you could do. Judge Cavanaugh made it clear that coaches can show their respect for the team if the team wants to say a prayer.”

Because Borden was not seeking permission from the court to lead the team in prayer — something he had done in the past — the ruling did not resolve the issue of whether a teacher or coach can conduct prayer sessions.

After being told he could not take part in pregame prayer, Borden, who led the team to a state championship two years ago, quit as football coach. He later rescinded his resignation and abided by the school district’s ruling forbidding him from participating in the prayer while his case was pending.

“He’s elated,” Riccio said. “What’s happening is that a lot of football coaches in New Jersey are congratulating him for taking a stand. Last year, when the whole controversy erupted, a lot of schools clamped down on what coaches could do. That’s now been washed away.”

Efforts yesterday to reach Borden, who is also a Spanish teacher at the high school, were unsuccessful.

The East Brunswick Board of Education issued a statement saying it was “pleased to get direction from the court as to what Mr. Borden could and could not do.”

Many of Borden’s friends and supporters voiced approval of the ruling. Les Steckel, the president of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, said the decision “championed the freedom for coaches to be positive role models to their athletes by modeling their faith.”

Nancy Halupka, the president of the East Brunswick team’s booster club and the mother of a current player, said: “I have always supported Coach Borden’s stand, and I am very happy with the decision the coach made. I agree with his outlook, that it’s back to the business of coaching football and being a teacher.”

The East Brunswick football team will begin practice Aug. 14 for the coming season.

************************************************

I'm glad he won this court case but I still think he's a piece of shit. When we played against EB my sophomore year he called a time-out with 10 seconds left in the game so they could kick a FG. They made the kick and won 30-0.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:10 pm 
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pjam81373 wrote:
I'm glad he won this court case but I still think he's a piece of shit. When we played against EB my sophomore year he called a time-out with 10 seconds left in the game so they could kick a FG. They made the kick and won 30-0.


Haha...that's a way to throw salt on the wound.

Yea, I'm glad he won the case too. If you want to pray with your team, go nuts. If a player doesn't want to participate in the prayer, I think the coach should respect that also.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:24 pm 
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mowbs wrote:
pjam81373 wrote:
I'm glad he won this court case but I still think he's a piece of shit. When we played against EB my sophomore year he called a time-out with 10 seconds left in the game so they could kick a FG. They made the kick and won 30-0.


Haha...that's a way to throw salt on the wound.

Yea, I'm glad he won the case too. If you want to pray with your team, go nuts. If a player doesn't want to participate in the prayer, I think the coach should respect that also.


1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:33 pm 
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broken_iris wrote:
mowbs wrote:
pjam81373 wrote:
I'm glad he won this court case but I still think he's a piece of shit. When we played against EB my sophomore year he called a time-out with 10 seconds left in the game so they could kick a FG. They made the kick and won 30-0.


Haha...that's a way to throw salt on the wound.

Yea, I'm glad he won the case too. If you want to pray with your team, go nuts. If a player doesn't want to participate in the prayer, I think the coach should respect that also.


1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Are you agreeing with mowbs or disagreeing?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:14 pm 
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College coaches do it all the time...what's the big deal? I you don't want to participate in AT, then don't. From what I've seen, it's completely optional...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:21 pm 
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Of all things in this world that carry a heavy degree of godcalling, team sports is the strangest.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:14 am 
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Bammer wrote:
College coaches do it all the time...what's the big deal?


It's not, really. That is, of course, when it comes to The New York Times. They feel it's ok for them to leak classified information and give aid and comfort to the enemy, but they find fault in letting some coach of a high school football team take part in a pre-game prayer.
Typical LMSM.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:20 am 
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McParadigm wrote:
Of all things in this world that carry a heavy degree of godcalling, team sports is the strangest.


gansta rap?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:28 am 
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B wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Of all things in this world that carry a heavy degree of godcalling, team sports is the strangest.


gansta rap?


I stand corrected.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:54 am 
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B wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Of all things in this world that carry a heavy degree of godcalling, team sports is the strangest.


gansta rap?


war?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:13 am 
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tommymctom wrote:
B wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Of all things in this world that carry a heavy degree of godcalling, team sports is the strangest.


gansta rap?


war?


...and of course, hurricanes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:18 am 
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LeninFlux wrote:
Bammer wrote:
College coaches do it all the time...what's the big deal?


It's not, really. That is, of course, when it comes to The New York Times. They feel it's ok for them to leak classified information and give aid and comfort to the enemy, but they find fault in letting some coach of a high school football team take part in a pre-game prayer.
Typical LMSM.

Blah, blah, blah. That will be my response to any post of yours using the term "New York Times" from now on. I know you like the term as much because you're a Masshole as because it's a liberal newspaper.

BTW, as long as the coach isn't "leading his team in prayer", I couldn't give a fuck if he prays with his players or not. That's the "free exercise clause".

I do have a serious problem with any authority figure at a public school leading a prayer. That's the "establishment clause".

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:24 am 
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B wrote:
broken_iris wrote:
mowbs wrote:
pjam81373 wrote:
I'm glad he won this court case but I still think he's a piece of shit. When we played against EB my sophomore year he called a time-out with 10 seconds left in the game so they could kick a FG. They made the kick and won 30-0.


Haha...that's a way to throw salt on the wound.

Yea, I'm glad he won the case too. If you want to pray with your team, go nuts. If a player doesn't want to participate in the prayer, I think the coach should respect that also.


1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Are you agreeing with mowbs or disagreeing?


Yea, I'm also confused.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:00 pm 
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I don't see a big deal in him bowing his head in prayer, but this coach has a lot of power and could discriminate against a player that doesn't want to participate. Why religion is involved in sports is beyond me. Next thing you know, guys will be setting up their muslim blankets on the 50 yard line so they can kneel and pray on it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:33 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
BTW, as long as the coach isn't "leading his team in prayer", I couldn't give a fuck if he prays with his players or not. That's the "free exercise clause".

I do have a serious problem with any authority figure at a public school leading a prayer. That's the "establishment clause".


Could not be said better.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:38 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Of all things in this world that carry a heavy degree of godcalling, team sports is the strangest.



it's really just a team activity. Pray for everyone to be safe, that kind of thing.

then 123 Win.....

It's just kind of amazing we spend so much time in court arguing fucking semantics that don't amount to anything.

after all how many tax dollars are we wasting on Barry Bonds? For what end?

Really, honestly, school board, don't you have much much much much much more important things to concern yourself with other than coaches praying before a game?

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:41 pm 
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mowbs wrote:
B wrote:
broken_iris wrote:
mowbs wrote:
pjam81373 wrote:
I'm glad he won this court case but I still think he's a piece of shit. When we played against EB my sophomore year he called a time-out with 10 seconds left in the game so they could kick a FG. They made the kick and won 30-0.


Haha...that's a way to throw salt on the wound.

Yea, I'm glad he won the case too. If you want to pray with your team, go nuts. If a player doesn't want to participate in the prayer, I think the coach should respect that also.


1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Are you agreeing with mowbs or disagreeing?


Yea, I'm also confused.



I am mysterious.


And I argee. It seems like a very simple 1st amendment freedom to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Is Allowed to Pray With Team
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:08 pm 
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broken_iris wrote:
And I argee. It seems like a very simple 1st amendment freedom to me.


I think it's a hard line to walk. When a Christian (or any religious person) takes a position as a public employee, they need to be careful about how they present themselves when they're on the clock. This situation is pretty passive, but you've still got a coach, the ultimate authority for the team, praying. If part of his job is to set an example, the message he's sending is that "you should be praying." On a football team, where coach's word and team cohesiveness is law and is often inforced by informal hazing, I think that's a dangerous example. And the city is paying him to send it.

I don't know if the coach should be legal prevented from participating, but if his concern is to respect the beliefs of everyone on the team and to prevent undue influence on impressionable young minds, he should step aside and let them pray by themselves.

Of course, when I was growing up, it was always part of our Christian battle plan to influence young minds and capitalize on impressionable minds in order to pull people into the flock before they had a chance to think for themselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:20 pm 
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Of course, when I was growing up, it was always part of our Christian battle plan to influence young minds and capitalize on impressionable minds in order to pull people into the flock before they had a chance to think for themselves.


What? Seriously? This is something you talked about at your weekly recruiting meetings?

I don't have any problem with this. Our coaches usually led us in a prayer before a game. It didn't harm anyone. The prayers weren't specifically religious. Like to Jesus or Allah or anyone specifically. It's really not a big deal.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:23 pm 
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Gimme Some Skin wrote:
Quote:
Of course, when I was growing up, it was always part of our Christian battle plan to influence young minds and capitalize on impressionable minds in order to pull people into the flock before they had a chance to think for themselves.


What? Seriously? This is something you talked about at your weekly recruiting meetings?

I don't have any problem with this. Our coaches usually led us in a prayer before a game. It didn't harm anyone. The prayers weren't specifically religious. Like to Jesus or Allah or anyone specifically. It's really not a big deal.


No, we didn't actively plan it like that, but in hindsight, so many of the church "outreach" events capitalized on hitting people while weak or young.

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