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 Post subject: Non-Hijackable Plane
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:57 pm 
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Can technology create a non-hijackable plane?

European researchers aim to bring that vision closer to reality by 2008 through an ambitious security program to combat on-board threats in an industry left reeling this week by a security scare that raised the spectre of September 11.

On Thursday, British police said they had foiled a plot to blow up aircraft mid-flight between Britain and the United States in what Washington said might have been an attempted al-Qaeda operation.

Since September 11, the idea that civilian planes can be used as weapons has taken hold globally, spawning increased security measures in airports around the world.

The researchers aim to create a "last barrier to attacks" on planes in flight.

Among the non-hijackable plane's features: computer systems designed to spot suspicious passenger behaviour, and a collision avoidance system that will correct the plane's trajectory to prevent it from being steered into a building or mountain.

The researchers are also investigating the possibility - although they say it is probably some 15 years away - of developing an on-board computer that could guide the plane automatically to the nearest airport, in the event of a hijack.

"You never reach zero level of threat, no risk," said program coordinator Daniel Gaultier of French technology group SAGEM Defense Securite, a unit of Safran.

"But if you equip planes with on-board electronics, it will make them very, very difficult to hijack."

The four-year, 35.8 million euro ($A59.8 million) project, called SAFEE or Security of Aircraft in the Future European Environment, was launched in February 2004.

Among those taking part are aircraft maker Airbus, its parents EADS and BAE Systems, as well as Thales and Siemens. The European Commission is contributing 19.5 million euros ($A32.5 million).

Omer Laviv of Athena GS3, an Israeli company taking part in the project, said the system might be commercially available around 2010 to 2012.

SAFEE goes beyond the limited on-board improvements made since September 11 - like reinforced cockpit doors and the deployment of sky marshals.

Proposed enhancements include:

- A chip-based system to allocate matching tags to passengers and their luggage, ensuring both are on board and removing the need for stewards to count passengers manually.

- Cameras at check-in desks and at the entrance to the plane, in order to verify with biometric imaging that the person getting on board is the same as the one who checked in.

- An "electronic nose" to check passengers for traces of explosives at the final ground check before boarding.

- An Onboard Threat Detection System (OTDS) to process information from video and audio sensors throughout the cabin and detect any erratic passenger behaviour.

- A Threat Assessment and Response Management System (TARMS) to assemble all information and propose an appropriate response to the pilot via a computer screen located at his side.

- A Data Protection System to secure all communications, including conversations between the cockpit and ground control.

- A secure cockpit door with a biometric system that recognises authorised crew by their fingerprints, together with a camera to check they are not opening it under duress.

- An automatic collision avoidance system to correct the plane's course if it strays from a permitted trajectory.

In a September 11-style hijack scenario, for example, the TARMS system would detect that the plane was on course to plough into buildings and use biometric fingerprint sensors to check whether the pilot or an intruder was at the controls.

"If there is a terrorist in control or the pilot is not aware of this (false) trajectory, the TARMS decides to avoid the obstacle so there is an automatic control of the plane," Gaultier said.

The avoidance system would also kick in if the pilot, despite verifying his identity, persisted in the false course.

Given its complexity, the SAFEE project raises legal and ethical issues which are themselves a key part of the research.

They include whether people will find it acceptable to be minutely observed by sensors throughout their flight, recording everything from their conversations to their toilet visits.

With help from sources including security agencies and behavioural psychologists, researchers are building a database of potentially suspicious traits for computers to detect.

"It could be someone who's using their mobile phone when they shouldn't be, or trying to light up a cigarette. But it could also be something much more extreme, it could be a potential terrorist," said James Ferryman, a scientist at Britain's Reading University who is working on SAFEE.

The sensitivity of the system could be adjusted depending on factors like the general threat level, he said.

Gaultier conceded the system could generate false alarms, but said the crew and pilot would remain in ultimate control, deciding if the threat was real.

The improved passenger surveillance, researchers say, will be an important advantage on larger planes such as the Airbus A380, capable of carrying 550 people.

They believe passengers will be ready to accept the trade-off of less privacy for the sake of greater safety.

"We have to show it's not Big Brother watching you, it's Big Brother looking after you," Ferryman said.

Researchers say it is too early to judge the price of equipping a plane with SAFEE, but they are working closely with a user group including airlines like Air France-KLM.

The issue is part of a wider debate within the industry, with airlines calling on governments to underwrite security costs.

"Suicide terrorism is not an issue for the airlines, it shouldn't be their responsibility," said Philip Baum, editor of Aviation Security International magazine.

"It is an attack, actually, against the state and it's part of a national defence, and therefore we need to fund this accordingly."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060810/ts_ ... y_air_dc_2

-----

There is another article that points out that people would be trading privacy for security but I don't see it as that big of a deal. As long as they don't have the cameras in the bathrooms, it's fine by me, because there's really nothing that i'd do on an airplane that i wouldn't feel comfortable doing while someone was watching me on a camera.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:14 pm 
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Why is all the technology needed?

Before takeoff: lock pilots securely in cockpit.
During flight: keep it locked at all times.
After landing: unlock cockpit when all passengers are gone.

Simple.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:26 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Why is all the technology needed?

Before takeoff: lock pilots securely in cockpit.
During flight: keep it locked at all times.
After landing: unlock cockpit when all passengers are gone.

Simple.


Well then how do the pilots get their coffee?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:12 pm 
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Zutballs wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Why is all the technology needed?

Before takeoff: lock pilots securely in cockpit.
During flight: keep it locked at all times.
After landing: unlock cockpit when all passengers are gone.

Simple.


Well then how do the pilots get their coffee?

The same way the passengers get their milk. They don't.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:13 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
Zutballs wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Why is all the technology needed?

Before takeoff: lock pilots securely in cockpit.
During flight: keep it locked at all times.
After landing: unlock cockpit when all passengers are gone.

Simple.


Well then how do the pilots get their coffee?

The same way the passengers get their milk. They don't.


what if they have to use the bathroom?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:16 pm 
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tommymctom wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Zutballs wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Why is all the technology needed?

Before takeoff: lock pilots securely in cockpit.
During flight: keep it locked at all times.
After landing: unlock cockpit when all passengers are gone.

Simple.


Well then how do the pilots get their coffee?

The same way the passengers get their milk. They don't.


what if they have to use the bathroom?


You should know--the answer used to be your avatar:

Image

;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:31 pm 
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Terrorists will just shift to other things. Like subways...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:37 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Why is all the technology needed?

Before takeoff: lock pilots securely in cockpit.
During flight: keep it locked at all times.
After landing: unlock cockpit when all passengers are gone.

Simple.


That didn't stop Jack Bauer!!

"Chip-based tags match passengers to their luggage, ensure both are on board."

Why the fuck didn't they institute that YEARS ago??? My bag might not still be in Philly. :x

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:43 pm 
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B wrote:
Why the fuck didn't they institute that YEARS ago??? My bag might not still be in Philly. :x


:lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:45 pm 
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applying complicated technology only opens the door for hackers and adds a very false sense of security.

i'd be much happier with well trained flight attendents, a couple of air marshalls on each flight, a locked and bullet proof cockpit door, a dog to sniff each passenger as he/she boards the plane, and a real baggage/cargo screening system.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:52 pm 
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Athletic Supporter wrote:
Terrorists will just shift to other things. Like subways...


as long as they stay away from quiznos black angus, thats fine with me.....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:08 pm 
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Peeps wrote:
Athletic Supporter wrote:
Terrorists will just shift to other things. Like subways...


as long as they stay away from quiznos black angus, thats fine with me.....


To quote someone else...I wouldn't walk across the street for a Quizno's.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:41 am 
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Peeps wrote:
as long as they stay away from quiznos black angus, thats fine with me.....


:li:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:57 am 
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kiddo wrote:
a real baggage/cargo screening system.


Not going to happen, the cost of putting proper screening in, and not somebody sitting around for eight hours looking at colours on a screen hoping that they will pick up something would be enourmous.

I was recently on the way to hanoi with a colleage and I had a lot of equipment in my carry on. A laptop, camera, psp, ip based video camera, encryption device, mp3 player and about 30 meters of cat 5 cable.
they picked up my colleagues bag and went through it, and all he had was a book and a bottle of water. There was obviously a mistake and they meant to pick up my bag. now if i was a terrorist (i'm not) I would be on the plane and all becuase somebody picked the wrong bag.

Proper screening would be one person putting their baggage through the screening process at a time and somebody actually checking what was in it, not a quick glance based on what might be dangerous.

Just my 2 cents


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Hijackable Plane
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:48 pm 
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Jim wrote:
Image

Can technology create a non-hijackable plane?

European researchers aim to bring that vision closer to reality by 2008 through an ambitious security program to combat on-board threats in an industry left reeling this week by a security scare that raised the spectre of September 11.

On Thursday, British police said they had foiled a plot to blow up aircraft mid-flight between Britain and the United States in what Washington said might have been an attempted al-Qaeda operation.

Since September 11, the idea that civilian planes can be used as weapons has taken hold globally, spawning increased security measures in airports around the world.

The researchers aim to create a "last barrier to attacks" on planes in flight.

Among the non-hijackable plane's features: computer systems designed to spot suspicious passenger behaviour, and a collision avoidance system that will correct the plane's trajectory to prevent it from being steered into a building or mountain.

The researchers are also investigating the possibility - although they say it is probably some 15 years away - of developing an on-board computer that could guide the plane automatically to the nearest airport, in the event of a hijack.

"You never reach zero level of threat, no risk," said program coordinator Daniel Gaultier of French technology group SAGEM Defense Securite, a unit of Safran.

"But if you equip planes with on-board electronics, it will make them very, very difficult to hijack."

The four-year, 35.8 million euro ($A59.8 million) project, called SAFEE or Security of Aircraft in the Future European Environment, was launched in February 2004.

Among those taking part are aircraft maker Airbus, its parents EADS and BAE Systems, as well as Thales and Siemens. The European Commission is contributing 19.5 million euros ($A32.5 million).

Omer Laviv of Athena GS3, an Israeli company taking part in the project, said the system might be commercially available around 2010 to 2012.

SAFEE goes beyond the limited on-board improvements made since September 11 - like reinforced cockpit doors and the deployment of sky marshals.

Proposed enhancements include:

- A chip-based system to allocate matching tags to passengers and their luggage, ensuring both are on board and removing the need for stewards to count passengers manually.

- Cameras at check-in desks and at the entrance to the plane, in order to verify with biometric imaging that the person getting on board is the same as the one who checked in.

- An "electronic nose" to check passengers for traces of explosives at the final ground check before boarding.

- An Onboard Threat Detection System (OTDS) to process information from video and audio sensors throughout the cabin and detect any erratic passenger behaviour.

- A Threat Assessment and Response Management System (TARMS) to assemble all information and propose an appropriate response to the pilot via a computer screen located at his side.

- A Data Protection System to secure all communications, including conversations between the cockpit and ground control.

- A secure cockpit door with a biometric system that recognises authorised crew by their fingerprints, together with a camera to check they are not opening it under duress.

- An automatic collision avoidance system to correct the plane's course if it strays from a permitted trajectory.

In a September 11-style hijack scenario, for example, the TARMS system would detect that the plane was on course to plough into buildings and use biometric fingerprint sensors to check whether the pilot or an intruder was at the controls.

"If there is a terrorist in control or the pilot is not aware of this (false) trajectory, the TARMS decides to avoid the obstacle so there is an automatic control of the plane," Gaultier said.

The avoidance system would also kick in if the pilot, despite verifying his identity, persisted in the false course.

Given its complexity, the SAFEE project raises legal and ethical issues which are themselves a key part of the research.

They include whether people will find it acceptable to be minutely observed by sensors throughout their flight, recording everything from their conversations to their toilet visits.

With help from sources including security agencies and behavioural psychologists, researchers are building a database of potentially suspicious traits for computers to detect.

"It could be someone who's using their mobile phone when they shouldn't be, or trying to light up a cigarette. But it could also be something much more extreme, it could be a potential terrorist," said James Ferryman, a scientist at Britain's Reading University who is working on SAFEE.

The sensitivity of the system could be adjusted depending on factors like the general threat level, he said.

Gaultier conceded the system could generate false alarms, but said the crew and pilot would remain in ultimate control, deciding if the threat was real.

The improved passenger surveillance, researchers say, will be an important advantage on larger planes such as the Airbus A380, capable of carrying 550 people.

They believe passengers will be ready to accept the trade-off of less privacy for the sake of greater safety.

"We have to show it's not Big Brother watching you, it's Big Brother looking after you," Ferryman said.

Researchers say it is too early to judge the price of equipping a plane with SAFEE, but they are working closely with a user group including airlines like Air France-KLM.

The issue is part of a wider debate within the industry, with airlines calling on governments to underwrite security costs.

"Suicide terrorism is not an issue for the airlines, it shouldn't be their responsibility," said Philip Baum, editor of Aviation Security International magazine.

"It is an attack, actually, against the state and it's part of a national defence, and therefore we need to fund this accordingly."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060810/ts_ ... y_air_dc_2

-----

There is another article that points out that people would be trading privacy for security but I don't see it as that big of a deal. As long as they don't have the cameras in the bathrooms, it's fine by me, because there's really nothing that i'd do on an airplane that i wouldn't feel comfortable doing while someone was watching me on a camera.



Modern day Titanic? I agree with everyone in this post who says, let's jsut do what we are suppose to be doing better. Screen the bags, screen the people and stand by the current procedures that make hijacking the plane incredibly difficult.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:29 pm 
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davidsatelle100 wrote:
kiddo wrote:
a real baggage/cargo screening system.


Proper screening would be one person putting their baggage through the screening process at a time and somebody actually checking what was in it, not a quick glance based on what might be dangerous.

Just my 2 cents


Seems like they already do this. Or else they have a system where they go through and break all the zippers on my bags.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am 
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TSA and Homeland Security are now fighting over whether X-raying shoes will detect bombs. Fantastic! I feel really safe, you fucking idiots!

I'm stuffing bacon into my shoes from now on, just to fuck with TSA.

Quote:
TSA says shoe X-rays can detect bombs
By LESLIE MILLER, Associated Press Writer
50 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The government sought to assure airline travelers Tuesday that X-raying shoes at security checkpoints was a reliable way of detecting improvised bombs, a claim contradicted by a Department of Homeland Security study.

"Screening shoes by X-ray is an effective method of identifying any type of anomaly, including explosives," Transportation Security Administration chief Kip Hawley said at a news conference at Washington's Reagan National Airport.

A study by the Homeland Security Department, obtained by The Associated Press, states that X-ray images "do not provide the information necessary to effect detection of explosives."

But under new orders this week, all airline passengers must put their shoes through X-ray machines before boarding their flights.

A scientist who has studied the issue said the truth lies somewhere between the study's findings that X-ray machines can't detect bombs and Hawley's assertion that they can.

Richard Lanza, senior research scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the X-ray image doesn't identify what a gel or a liquid is made of. However, he said, screeners can "look at the image and connect regions that look the same in density and shape."

It's not a foolproof method, but it is often effective, he said.

"Nothing is 100 percent," Lanza said. "But if the bad guys think you have a good shot at discovering it, they'll do something different."

Hawley said 31,000 screeners have been specially trained to determine if a shoe has been tampered with when they look at its X-ray image.

"It does take the human brain to make the interpretation on X-ray, but it is, frankly, not the most difficult thing we have to do to find potential shoe bombs," Hawley said.

He displayed copies of X-ray images of two pairs of shoes — one with no explosive device and one worn by Richard Reid, who was arrested aboard a trans-Atlantic flight in 2001 when he tried to ignite a bomb in his shoe.

"You can see very clearly the difference between a shoe with an explosive and one without," Hawley said.

But the Homeland Security Department said in its April 2005 report that a screener's ability to detect improvised explosive devices "is not a matter of proper training, reinforcement or motivation." The report is titled "Systems Engineering Study of Civil Aviation Security — Phase I."

The report cited studies that show a person who has made or carried a bomb is likely to have traces of explosives residue on his hand. The report recommended that screeners use a technology called explosives trace detection, or ETD, on the shoes and hands of passengers who arouse suspicion or are chosen randomly for more screening.

ETD is commonly used at airports by TSA screeners, who use a dry pad on the end of a wand to wipe a surface — baggage, shoes, clothing. They then put the pad into an ion mobility spectrometer that can detect traces of explosives.

The TSA's new screening procedures were ordered after British police last week broke up a terrorist plot to assemble and detonate bombs aboard as many as 10 flights from Britain to the United States.

Airline passengers can no longer carry liquids and gels into airline passenger cabins. Their carryon luggage is searched by hand more, and they're subject to random double screening at boarding gates.

On Sunday, the TSA made it mandatory for shoes to be run through X-ray machines as passengers go through metal detectors. The checks were begun in late 2001, after Reid's arrest, and have been optional for several years.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:57 am 
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Green Habit wrote:
Why is all the technology needed?

Before takeoff: lock pilots securely in cockpit.
During flight: keep it locked at all times.
After landing: unlock cockpit when all passengers are gone.

Simple.


what if there are snakes in the cockpit and the pilots are locked in

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:29 am 
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i think the only non-hijackable plane is this one:

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:46 pm 
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being a state government employee i can tell you that the governemtn does not want anything to do with an easy answer... they will conduct study, after study, after sutdy, then set up a commitee to set up another commitee, then schedule about 3,236 meetings to decide that there is a problem... then the proces begins again to address the problem

it is so obvious how to eliminate plane hi-jackings...lock the fucking cock-pit just like you lock your car door in a bad neighborhood at night?

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