Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:22 am Posts: 1603 Location: Buffalo
Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
General Motors, meanwhile, plans to have market-ready hydrogen fuel cell cars by 2010.
TOKYO (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp. aims to cut the cost of hydrogen-powered fuel-cell cars to $50,000 from more than $1 million by 2015, when it hopes to start selling the environmentally friendly vehicles, the Financial Times reported on Friday.
Toyota is "developing everything to reach this (2015) target" the financial daily quoted Kazuo Okamoto, who takes over as Toyota's head of research and development next month, as saying during a visit to Frankfurt.
Toyota, the world's second-biggest car maker, believes launching hydrogen cars earlier than 2015 would be difficult due to a lack of filling stations, the paper said.
Its plans are more conservative than those of General Motors Corp., which aims to have a production-ready hydrogen vehicle by 2010 with a fuel cell that costs $5,000, it said.
Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which emit only water, would ease environmental concerns and help cars meet stricter emissions regulations. They could also counter to rising energy prices.
A Toyota spokesman could not confirm Okamoto's comments.
Toyota said on Friday its fuel-cell hybrid cars had received vehicle type certification from the Japanese government -- meaning the cars no longer need to be certified individually -- clearing the first hurdle for commercialisation.
Toyota, which started limited marketing of fuel-cell vehicles in 2002, has now leased 16 such cars to government bodies in Japan and the United States but has not revealed any launch plan.
Toyota and GM are in the early stage of discussions on collaborating to make fuel cells, a source familiar with the plans told Reuters last month.
Honda Motor Co., Japan's third-biggest car maker, also said on Friday its FCX fuel-cell vehicles had received type certification.
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Seems a much better alternative than drilling in the Arctic, no?? Obviously, $50,000 is too expensive for most people, but at least things seem to be headed in a better direction.
My money is on Toyota. GM can't do anything right.
There's something disconcerting about driving a high-speed oval for the first time, and it's easy to identify: As you approach either of the steeply banked turns, you don't slow down.
Trust me when I tell you it's easier to nod and say "Sure, I get it" than it is to blast into those perfect semicircles at full speed. Especially when you're only the second civilian in the world to drive the next-generation Honda FCX prototype, a one-of-a-kind, multimillion-dollar, zero-emission fuel-cell car that you always assumed was made of duct tape and posterboard gussied up with a nice paint job, as is so often the case for auto-show concepts.
Surely the rules are different for this car.
"Dondon dondon osaete kudasai." Huh? I mentally check and then recheck my Japanese. There's no question: The clipboard-clutching engineer next to me just told me to floor it. So I floor it. And the car goes -- fast. (Take a closer look at the Honda FCXexternal link)
Though Honda will not give official numbers for acceleration, my silent mental stopwatch puts the FCX's 0-60 time at about seven seconds, on par with an Audi A4. And around the steep banks, the car is completely surefooted, with no shakes or scary suspension moments. It seems a lot closer to production-ready than its "limited release" date of 2008 (which refers to the year when, like, one guy in California gets to lease the car) would suggest.
The FCX's driving traits are attributable to Honda's new vertically oriented fuel cell. Instead of lying flat under the floor like all the other hydrogen vehicles out there, Honda's new stack stands upright where a normal car's transmission would go. (Read Honda CEO's thoughts on hydrogen vehicles)
The advantage of this is that the water created as a by-product of converting hydrogen to electricity doesn't need to be aggressively pumped out of the fuel cell; gravity does much of the work, so there's much less need for a power-sucking, efficiency-stealing pump to move the moisture.
The orientation also makes for a much lower center of gravity than a typical fuel-cell car. Almost all of the ones before the FCX looked like mini SUVs: high off the ground for their size. This is because most of the area under their floors was taken up by their fuel cells and the massive cooling ducts meant to keep them from overheating. This design made the cars nail-biters anywhere north of 75 mph.
At least, that's how the currently available version of the FCX felt when I drove it for comparison. While I slowed it waaaay down before entering the curve, I pushed the low-slung prototype into the bank at more than 80 mph. The high-off-the-ground '05 FCX felt skittish even on the straightaway at its maximum speed of 140 kph (about 87 mph). The FCX prototype, which looks like a sleeker and more stylish Accord, is low to the ground, sporty, and well-behaved at 92 mph, my maximum speed in it.
"And how do you like the ball display?" the engineer asks, referring to the computer-rendered glowing green ball in the middle of the instrument panel.
"What's it do?" I ask.
"Under full acceleration, when you are using the maximum amount of hydrogen, it will turn red. Try it and see."
I watch the ball change color as I mash the pedal, and then quickly look up to see a banked corner approaching rapidly. Uh-oh. In this case, it's best not to keep your eye on the ball.
"I don't like it at all," I say, forgetting for a minute the tact I should be using toward a man who has dedicated the last few years of his life to creating this car.
"Why not?" he asks, business-like but clearly concerned.
"I was so busy watching the ball change color that I almost put the car into the wall."
"Naruhodo," he says. Translation: "I see what you mean."
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:09 pm Posts: 10839 Location: metro west, mass Gender: Male
Filling station eh?
So it would still cost us money to operate. How about this:
1.) have filling stations that consumers can purchase and install in their garage.
or
2.) have the mechanism for extracting hydrogen from air built directly into the car.
_________________ "There are two ways to enslave and conquer a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt." -John Adams
*skeptical of anything that requires large scale infrastructure changes*
How is hydrogen generated and stored?
What is the lifespan of the fuel cell?
Does the hydrogen based fuel cell pose a bigger risk in a collision?
How much torque is actually generated vs. the gasoline equivalent?
So I was able to answer the first one myself. The hydrogen would come from natural gas, which means an endothermic reaction (energy loss in the conversion). There is only one method of power generation that would make this feasible, nukulor.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
broken iris wrote:
So I was able to answer the first one myself. The hydrogen would come from natural gas, which means an endothermic reaction (energy loss in the conversion). There is only one method of power generation that would make this feasible, nukulor.
Good thinking. There's no such thing as a free lunch--you gotta start somewhere with the energy production.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:03 am Posts: 24177 Location: Australia
they've all been saying the hydrogen car is five years away for about fifteen years now.
see you in five years!
_________________ Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear, Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer. The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:44 pm Posts: 8910 Location: Santa Cruz Gender: Male
Yeah, I hear ya. However the difference between those cars 15 years ago, and now, is they are far closer to being practical. Technically, they are already here. It will mostly come down to if the system can support a big change in infrastructure. I'm also skeptical of that, like broken iris already commented on. It will take more than casual interest to make it happen. Hybrids are far more successful because they dont really take any infrastructure adjustments.
By the time the system could be ready for such a change, they will probably have figured out a better technology. And hey, if not, then we can go with something like this.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
the thing is that hydrogen is not very pratic to stock at all, it needs extreme sub-zero temperatures right?
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:13 pm Posts: 2948 Location: Caucusland
Yeah, some drunk kid could ram this into a tree and take out a few city blocks. Didn't the Germans try floating thingies with hydrogen? Oh, the humanity.
_________________
Bob Knight wrote:
When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down so my critics can kiss my ass.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:03 am Posts: 24177 Location: Australia
Merrill wrote:
Yeah, some drunk kid could ram this into a tree and take out a few city blocks. Didn't the Germans try floating thingies with hydrogen? Oh, the humanity.
_________________ Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear, Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer. The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:13 pm Posts: 2948 Location: Caucusland
I want to make love to that internet image.
Suppose this thing has a guarantee to work well and a cost similar to other middle-class cars. What are the chances it will actually end up in mass production?
_________________
Bob Knight wrote:
When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down so my critics can kiss my ass.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:03 am Posts: 24177 Location: Australia
Merrill wrote:
Suppose this thing has a guarantee to work well and a cost similar to other middle-class cars. What are the chances it will actually end up in mass production?
are you factoring in the infrastructure switchover in that "similar cost"?
_________________ Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear, Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer. The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:13 pm Posts: 2948 Location: Caucusland
vacatetheword wrote:
Merrill wrote:
Suppose this thing has a guarantee to work well and a cost similar to other middle-class cars. What are the chances it will actually end up in mass production?
are you factoring in the infrastructure switchover in that "similar cost"?
I think the willingness to do the switchover is what I have the biggest question about.
_________________
Bob Knight wrote:
When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down so my critics can kiss my ass.
hydrogen cars are not the answer, electric cars should and could be. too bad the car companies killed their electric car programs. it is not worth it in the end for hydrogen cars. first and foremost, to generate large amounts of hydrogen, electrolysis of water would be needed. You need electricity for that. It makes no sense to make the electricity, then make the hydrogen just to get electricity back in the end. alot less electricity The efficiency of the process is horrible. And then you would have to spend billlions on all the hydrogen infrastructure. It makes alot more sense to improve battery storage and materials.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
corky wrote:
hydrogen cars are not the answer, electric cars should and could be. too bad the car companies killed their electric car programs. it is not worth it in the end for hydrogen cars. first and foremost, to generate large amounts of hydrogen, electrolysis of water would be needed. You need electricity for that. It makes no sense to make the electricity, then make the hydrogen just to get electricity back in the end. alot less electricity The efficiency of the process is horrible. And then you would have to spend billlions on all the hydrogen infrastructure. It makes alot more sense to improve battery storage and materials.
Um, electric cars need electricity too. I'm not sure what you're getting at here with the compare/contrast.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:03 am Posts: 24177 Location: Australia
Green Habit wrote:
corky wrote:
hydrogen cars are not the answer, electric cars should and could be. too bad the car companies killed their electric car programs. it is not worth it in the end for hydrogen cars. first and foremost, to generate large amounts of hydrogen, electrolysis of water would be needed. You need electricity for that. It makes no sense to make the electricity, then make the hydrogen just to get electricity back in the end. alot less electricity The efficiency of the process is horrible. And then you would have to spend billlions on all the hydrogen infrastructure. It makes alot more sense to improve battery storage and materials.
Um, electric cars need electricity too. I'm not sure what you're getting at here with the compare/contrast.
the important thing in producing the electricity, be it hydrogen or batteries, is that the electricity comes from renewable, non greenhouse gas emitting sources
_________________ Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear, Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer. The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.
hydrogen cars are not the answer, electric cars should and could be. too bad the car companies killed their electric car programs. it is not worth it in the end for hydrogen cars. first and foremost, to generate large amounts of hydrogen, electrolysis of water would be needed. You need electricity for that. It makes no sense to make the electricity, then make the hydrogen just to get electricity back in the end. alot less electricity The efficiency of the process is horrible. And then you would have to spend billlions on all the hydrogen infrastructure. It makes alot more sense to improve battery storage and materials.
Um, electric cars need electricity too. I'm not sure what you're getting at here with the compare/contrast.
yeah electric cars need electrcity, but the energy your getting out of a regular battery is alot more efficient than from a fuel cell because you dont have to make electricity say from nuclear, which has an efficiency of mabye 50%, then you have to use that electricity to make hydrogen, and then yyou have to used the hydrogen to make electricity again. right now the energy efficiency of a fuel cell is 20 or 30%. I think batteries run around 80 or so. the extra conversions to hydrogen and back is a big waste of energy. if batteries contintue to improve and less enviromentally damaging materials can be utilized, fuel cells will be useless for most applications.
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