Post subject: Gay couple denied communion after stand
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:23 pm
Needs to start paying for bandwidth
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:20 am Posts: 31173
Quote:
Gay couple denied communion after stand
After taking a public stand for same-sex marriage, a gay couple were notified they are no longer welcome at Catholic communion. By KATHLEEN MILLER Associated Press
GILLETTE, Wyo. -- Leah Vader and Lynne Huskinson, a lesbian couple who got married in Canada in August, sent a letter recently to their state legislator decrying a Wyoming bill that would deny recognition of same-sex marriages. The lawmaker read the letter on the floor of the Legislature.
Soon after, the local paper interviewed the couple on Ash Wednesday and ran a story and pictures of them with ash on their foreheads, a mark of their Christian faith.
It wasn't long after that that the couple received a notice from their parish church telling them they have been barred from receiving Communion.
''If all this stuff hadn't hit the newspaper, it wouldn't have been any different than before -- nobody would have known about it,'' said the couple's parish priest at St. Matthew's, the Rev. Cliff Jacobson. ``The sin is one thing. It's a very different thing to go public with that sin.''
Catholics deemed sinners in the eyes of the church are sometimes taken aside and privately advised not to take Communion. But Cheyenne Bishop David Ricken, gay Catholic organizations and a national church spokeswoman said they could not recall any previous instance of a U.S. bishop denying the sacrament to a gay couple in writing.
Now Huskinson and Vader say they are struggling to reconcile their devotion to the church with their devotion to each other.
''You spend half your time defending your gayness to Catholics,'' Vader said, ``and the other half of your time defending your Catholicism to gays.''
The couple, who regularly attended Mass and took Communion, have not been back to St. Matthew's since they received the letter a month and a half ago. Vader said they did not want to make a scene.
The 46-year-old newlyweds -- Vader is a supervisor at a recycling center, Huskinson a coal miner -- ran afoul of a sort of don't-ask-don't-tell policy on the church's part.
''I told my wife in good conscience that if I had known those ladies, and we'd have been having a beer, I'd have just told them to keep everything to themselves,'' parish music director John Chick said. He added that once news like this hits the papers, ``someone's forced to deal with it now, aren't they?''
The parish priest said that after the couple put their engagement and marriage announcements in the local paper, he ran reminders of the church's teachings in the parish bulletin as a warning.
After the Ash Wednesday story, the priest sent this letter: ``It is with a heavy heart, in obedience to the instruction of Bishop David Ricken, that I must inform you that, because of your union and your public advocacy of same-sex unions, that you are unable to receive Communion.''
The bishop said the couple's sex life constitutes a grave sin, ``and the fact that it became so public, that was their choice.''
Last fall, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops overwhelmingly approved new guidelines that say parishes should welcome gays while telling them to be celibate because the church considers their sexuality ''disordered.'' The bishops said that anyone who knowingly persists in sinful behavior, such as gay sex or using artificial contraception, should refrain from taking Communion.
Sister Mary Ann Walsh, spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said the church allows local bishops to handle decisions on who may take Communion, so there is no record of how many have been barred from receiving the sacrament.
Walsh said most cases she has heard of involved public figures. During the 2004 presidential campaign, Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis said he would deny Communion to John Kerry, a Catholic who supports abortion rights.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
As stupid as this is, I honestly don't have any philosophical problem with the Catholic Church in this case. If they want to deny their members certain things, that's their right.
I wonder if they'll wonder why their membership numbers are dropping, though....
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:20 am Posts: 5198 Location: Connecticut Gender: Male
Green Habit wrote:
As stupid as this is, I honestly don't have any philosophical problem with the Catholic Church in this case. If they want to deny their members certain things, that's their right.
Agree.
Everyone knows that the Catholic church disappoves of homosexuality. I have never understood why some gay people want to be a part of an organization that believes homosexuals will burn in Hell for eternity. There are a few Christian denominations out there that openly welcome gays, why not join those? A "don't ask, don't tell" policy by the Catholic church is the best they can do, and I applaud them for at least going that far.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
Sandler wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
As stupid as this is, I honestly don't have any philosophical problem with the Catholic Church in this case. If they want to deny their members certain things, that's their right.
Agree.
Everyone knows that the Catholic church disappoves of homosexuality. I have never understood why some gay people want to be a part of an organization that believes homosexuals will burn in Hell for eternity. There are a few Christian denominations out there that openly welcome gays, why not join those? A "don't ask, don't tell" policy by the Catholic church is the best they can do, and I applaud them for at least going that far.
Well, you've got to account for the fact that these women have probably been raised Catholic their whole lives, and probably have plenty of close friendships with other members of their church. I'd guess they wouldn't want to throw out all the good things they have for the church just because of a stupid bad thing.
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:20 am Posts: 5198 Location: Connecticut Gender: Male
Green Habit wrote:
Sandler wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
As stupid as this is, I honestly don't have any philosophical problem with the Catholic Church in this case. If they want to deny their members certain things, that's their right.
Agree.
Everyone knows that the Catholic church disappoves of homosexuality. I have never understood why some gay people want to be a part of an organization that believes homosexuals will burn in Hell for eternity. There are a few Christian denominations out there that openly welcome gays, why not join those? A "don't ask, don't tell" policy by the Catholic church is the best they can do, and I applaud them for at least going that far.
Well, you've got to account for the fact that these women have probably been raised Catholic their whole lives, and probably have plenty of close friendships with other members of their church. I'd guess they wouldn't want to throw out all the good things they have for the church just because of a stupid bad thing.
I see your point, but the church isn't telling them they cannot attend, or be Catholic. I gather from the article that this church doesn't have a problem with them attending mass, and keeping whatever ties they have to other members. It seems this priest actually likes these women. It's pretty unfair to him though, to go against what his faith teaches (and what his superior is asking him to do) in order to accomodate two people that are "living in sin", according to the Catholic doctrine.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:01 am Posts: 19477 Location: Brooklyn NY
why would anyone who's gay want to be Catholic anyway
_________________
LittleWing sometime in July 2007 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's so elementary, and the big time investors behind the drive in the stock market aren't so stupid. This isn't the false economy of 2000.
I know a few pretty strict Catholics and they believe that people who are Protestant Christians are going to hell. Only Catholics are allowed in to heaven under their beliefs. I, personally, don't know enough about the Roman Catholic belief system to know if that is what their faith teaches them, but that might explain why these two don't just join another Christian demonination.
_________________ "Relaxed, but Edgy" - Ed, Raleigh, NC April, 2003
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Ilium wrote:
I know a few pretty strict Catholics and they believe that people who are Protestant Christians are going to hell. Only Catholics are allowed in to heaven under their beliefs. I, personally, don't know enough about the Roman Catholic belief system to know if that is what their faith teaches them, but that might explain why these two don't just join another Christian demonination.
If they're going to hell for being gay, they might as well find a church that embraces them while they're alive.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
I know a few pretty strict Catholics and they believe that people who are Protestant Christians are going to hell. Only Catholics are allowed in to heaven under their beliefs. I, personally, don't know enough about the Roman Catholic belief system to know if that is what their faith teaches them, but that might explain why these two don't just join another Christian demonination.
If they're going to hell for being gay, they might as well find a church that embraces them while they're alive.
I can do you one better: if they're going to hell for being gay, why go to church at all?
_________________ "Relaxed, but Edgy" - Ed, Raleigh, NC April, 2003
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
Brazilian catholicism is the best...since almost everybody claims to be "catholic", nobody really cares.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:33 am Posts: 35357 Location: Los Angeles, CA Gender: Male
Ilium wrote:
B wrote:
Ilium wrote:
I know a few pretty strict Catholics and they believe that people who are Protestant Christians are going to hell. Only Catholics are allowed in to heaven under their beliefs. I, personally, don't know enough about the Roman Catholic belief system to know if that is what their faith teaches them, but that might explain why these two don't just join another Christian demonination.
If they're going to hell for being gay, they might as well find a church that embraces them while they're alive.
I can do you one better: if they're going to hell for being gay, why go to church at all?
best post of thread.
_________________ Winner, RM all-time NBA tourney.
Brazilian catholicism is the best...since almost everybody claims to be "catholic", nobody really cares.
Can anyone from Chicago or Boston second what HB is saying? I've always thought that Chicago or Boston would be a reasonable place to be a Catholic for that very reason; everybody is so people don't take it too seriously. I on the other hand had the misfortune of being raised Catholic in Kentucky. That is a bit of a pain in the ass. While most people don't care that much, it does set you apart, and I'm sure there are plenty of people around here who I would get a better reaction from if I told them I had a horn growing out of my head as opposed to saying I was raised Catholic.
I know a few pretty strict Catholics and they believe that people who are Protestant Christians are going to hell. Only Catholics are allowed in to heaven under their beliefs. I, personally, don't know enough about the Roman Catholic belief system to know if that is what their faith teaches them, but that might explain why these two don't just join another Christian demonination.
I think those people you know are in a small minority. I'm pretty sure Catholic doctorine does teach that Catholicism is the only way to heaven, but as with most other things, the majority of Catholics take much of church doctrine with a grain of salt. Cafeteria Catholics I believe they are referred to as.
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:08 pm Posts: 1440 Location: AAAAAAAAAAAAARIZONA Gender: Male
Ilium wrote:
B wrote:
Ilium wrote:
I know a few pretty strict Catholics and they believe that people who are Protestant Christians are going to hell. Only Catholics are allowed in to heaven under their beliefs. I, personally, don't know enough about the Roman Catholic belief system to know if that is what their faith teaches them, but that might explain why these two don't just join another Christian demonination.
If they're going to hell for being gay, they might as well find a church that embraces them while they're alive.
I can do you one better: if they're going to hell for being gay, why go to church at all?
but not all denominations preach that - it's just the churches that get in the news for not being open to gays who preach that gays are going to hell.
there are many churches where gays and lesbians are free to join, take communion, and are told they are not going to hell.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:03 am Posts: 24177 Location: Australia
Green Habit wrote:
As stupid as this is, I honestly don't have any philosophical problem with the Catholic Church in this case.
i'm not sure. to me it goes against their overriding philosophy of forgiveness.
_________________ Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear, Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer. The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.
Post subject: Re: Gay couple denied communion after stand
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:43 am
Got Some
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:02 am Posts: 2560 Location: Dallas/Atlanta/Savannah
conoalias wrote:
Quote:
Gay couple denied communion after stand
After taking a public stand for same-sex marriage, a gay couple were notified they are no longer welcome at Catholic communion. By KATHLEEN MILLER Associated Press
GILLETTE, Wyo. -- Leah Vader and Lynne Huskinson, a lesbian couple who got married in Canada in August, sent a letter recently to their state legislator decrying a Wyoming bill that would deny recognition of same-sex marriages. The lawmaker read the letter on the floor of the Legislature.
Soon after, the local paper interviewed the couple on Ash Wednesday and ran a story and pictures of them with ash on their foreheads, a mark of their Christian faith.
It wasn't long after that that the couple received a notice from their parish church telling them they have been barred from receiving Communion.
''If all this stuff hadn't hit the newspaper, it wouldn't have been any different than before -- nobody would have known about it,'' said the couple's parish priest at St. Matthew's, the Rev. Cliff Jacobson. ``The sin is one thing. It's a very different thing to go public with that sin.''
Catholics deemed sinners in the eyes of the church are sometimes taken aside and privately advised not to take Communion. But Cheyenne Bishop David Ricken, gay Catholic organizations and a national church spokeswoman said they could not recall any previous instance of a U.S. bishop denying the sacrament to a gay couple in writing.
Now Huskinson and Vader say they are struggling to reconcile their devotion to the church with their devotion to each other.
''You spend half your time defending your gayness to Catholics,'' Vader said, ``and the other half of your time defending your Catholicism to gays.''
The couple, who regularly attended Mass and took Communion, have not been back to St. Matthew's since they received the letter a month and a half ago. Vader said they did not want to make a scene.
The 46-year-old newlyweds -- Vader is a supervisor at a recycling center, Huskinson a coal miner -- ran afoul of a sort of don't-ask-don't-tell policy on the church's part.
''I told my wife in good conscience that if I had known those ladies, and we'd have been having a beer, I'd have just told them to keep everything to themselves,'' parish music director John Chick said. He added that once news like this hits the papers, ``someone's forced to deal with it now, aren't they?''
The parish priest said that after the couple put their engagement and marriage announcements in the local paper, he ran reminders of the church's teachings in the parish bulletin as a warning.
After the Ash Wednesday story, the priest sent this letter: ``It is with a heavy heart, in obedience to the instruction of Bishop David Ricken, that I must inform you that, because of your union and your public advocacy of same-sex unions, that you are unable to receive Communion.''
The bishop said the couple's sex life constitutes a grave sin, ``and the fact that it became so public, that was their choice.''
Last fall, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops overwhelmingly approved new guidelines that say parishes should welcome gays while telling them to be celibate because the church considers their sexuality ''disordered.'' The bishops said that anyone who knowingly persists in sinful behavior, such as gay sex or using artificial contraception, should refrain from taking Communion.
Sister Mary Ann Walsh, spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said the church allows local bishops to handle decisions on who may take Communion, so there is no record of how many have been barred from receiving the sacrament.
Walsh said most cases she has heard of involved public figures. During the 2004 presidential campaign, Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis said he would deny Communion to John Kerry, a Catholic who supports abortion rights.
I feel for them, but this is not exactly a big suprise.
_________________ "is that a fucking pearl jam shirt?" Courtney Love
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
vacatetheword wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
As stupid as this is, I honestly don't have any philosophical problem with the Catholic Church in this case.
i'm not sure. to me it goes against their overriding philosophy of forgiveness.
Maybe I should have said "legal problem" instead to clarify. As a private organization, I could care less what privileges they offer or do not offer to certain members. They have the freedom to do that, and others have the freedom to protest that action and try to convince that changes be made.
However, on a personal level, I dislike any organization that discriminates against sexual preference--and I would probably agree with you that the Catholic Church in particular could be seen as hypocritical on this issue.
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