It's about time.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041128/ap_on_re_eu/germany_muslim_minority

2 hours, 7 minutes ago Europe - AP


By TONY CZUCZKA, Associated Press Writer

BERLIN - Shop signs in Arabic and Turkish, storefront mosques and women wearing headscarves in the streets are evidence of how new arrivals have found a slice of home in Berlin's heavily immigrant Neukoelln neighborhood.



For years, Germans viewed such neighborhoods as a sign of a tolerant, multicultural society. But the Nov. 2 slaying of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh allegedly by an Islamic radical has raised alarm in next-door Germany, which is home to more than 3 million Muslims.


Fears that growing alienation between immigrants and majority Germans could lead to strife have prompted politicians including Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to send a message to Muslims immigrants: Learn German, fit in, commit to democratic rules.


In Neukoelln, where 80 percent of elementary school students are not German, some civic leaders say the debate underscores something they have said for some time: Immigrants are not going to conform to mainstream German society over time.


"Pointing out the problem doesn't make you a racist," said Leopold Bongart, who has taught German language courses in Neukoelln since the 1970s.


"We told ourselves that the process in many ways would take care of itself. That hasn't worked."


The government wants to counter the trend with a Jan. 1 legal change that presses immigrants and their children to take German language and civics courses, and makes it easier for authorities to deport Islamic hate preachers.


Days after someone firebombed a mosque in southern Germany, Schroeder warned Nov. 21 against letting Van Gogh's killing trigger a "battle of cultures" between Muslims and Germans. Muslims, he said, must do their part by standing up "for our legal system and our democratic rules of play."


More than anything, politicians and law enforcement officials worry that Muslims who reject German culture are more susceptible to radical Islam — a fear stoked by the fact that three of the Sept. 11 suicide pilots lived and studied in Germany. One politician has urged that imams be required to preach in German to help authorities keep tabs on them.


Germans would like to see more Muslim immigrants like Alev Ozbingol, 22, who recently left Turkey to join her Turkish-born husband in Berlin and look for a job.


"There was a time when there were a lot of jobs where you didn't need German," she said during a break in her language class. "Nowadays you do."


And in response to Van Gogh's stabbing on an Amsterdam street — Van Gogh was an outspoken critic of Islam — German Muslims recently organized a demonstration in Cologne that drew 25,000 people.


But 40 years after Turks first flocked to then-West Germany to help power the postwar economic boom, many immigrants in the big cities continue to live largely isolated from mainstream German society.


"The main ethnic groups have built complete infrastructures, from kindergartens and stores, lawyers, travel agents, banks to doctors for old-age care," Neukoelln district Mayor Heinz Buschkowsky said.


He cautioned against equating that with rising Islamic extremism.


"This re-Islamisation, it's also an aid for many who feel disoriented in the new society," Bongart said.


Social problems run deep in Neukoelln, an inner-city mix of old tenements and new housing projects just 3.5 miles south of the Brandenburg Gate's tourist bustle.


Amid the Turkish coffeehouses and Arab jewelers, the jobless rate is 23 percent, and 70 percent of non-German youths only finish junior high school or drop out before. Both figures are far above the national average.

Buschkowsky says it's time Germany made a new push to reach out and integrate its Muslims.

"Those who feel shut out," he warns, "become easy prey for hate preachers and criminal groups."

Very interesting, do you feel the lack of homogeniety will be the downfall of the United States as well?

I don't think it matters in the US, it's run by greed, not culture or religion.

Yes, and you feel these are not characteristics of the citizens of European countries, stop kidding yourself.

immigration is a great thing but its not a good thing when immigrants come into a western country and make "little vietnams" for arguements sake instead of embracing the country they have moved into. its my experience that the younger generations are fine in this respect but the older immigrants often don't make any effort.

I know there is a plague in Europe of sick Americanization and a disturbing amount of Christian morals floating around. But I think as a general rule Europeans living in Europe are more in touch with their roots than American and Vinlandic born 2nd and 3nd generation Europeans.

I don't see why there's a need to classify some immigration as good or bad. Typically the first generation of any immigrant wave will always hold more to the traditions of their home nation and over time, succeeding generations will assimilate into a larger culture to varying degrees. In many areas (Miami, New York, etc) there will always be a cultural home base for new immigrants from a given area.

I don't think it has anything to do with immigrants not wanting to embrace their new country. It's strictly a matter of convenience and comfort. It's much easier to start a new life in an area where your customs and language are the same as where you came from. As soon as that person's children go to school and grow up you invariably find a move towards the larger culture to a certain degree. How are "little vietnams" bad? I'd argue they serve a great purpose. They allow immigrants from countries to come and have a support base where they can begin life the new country without government assistance. I am sure a skilled immigrant from Cuba is much more likely to succeed in Miami than he would in Iowa. These ethnic enclaves are essential to healthy immigration.

Forcing people to "become German" or "become American" simply because they have moved to that country will only cause people to cling to their culture and increase a sense of being an 'alien.'

No.

So, how would you promote homogeniety within the U.S.?

Does that mean Muslims get 50% off during Octoberfest?


Now it's tough to be a Jew or an Arab in Germany.


Hell, at least they are consistant.

I split off the universal healthcare discussion to a new thread.

--PunkDavid

Just blame it all on America. Seems to be working just fine.

Very true. If money is to be made, America will be there. Otherwise you're screwed.

Have you even considered why immigrants tend to cluster?

Immigration is not something to be feared. It takes a compromise from both the immigrant and the native. Immigrants tend to cluster together at first because they feel safest surrounding themselves with people who know their first language and culture. Feeling secure is the only way one can begin to reach out into the new culture and learn the new language.

Most Americans, upon moving to a foreign country with English not being the primary language, would tend to group themselves together to lean on each other while learning the ways of the new country they find themselves in.

Eventually, the immigrants and their decendents will learn to assimilate into the culture, and by doing so, will bring a part of their old culture with them thus advancing the new society.

It works, but it takes time and a true commitment from both immigrant and native populations.

*notes that tsunami would not be here without her grandparents immigrating to the US from Japan*

Also, this is true with a lot of aspects in life. Hell, all us PJ fans are clustering here as we speak!

Obviously, such a thing is more magnified when you have conditions that immigrants must deal with.

Homogeneity does not work. Look throughout history, look at Ferdinand/Isabella, Louis XIV, Hitler. Once you "unify" the nation, its citizens will simply find something else to squabble about.

the immigrants are choosing to move to a foreign nation and therefore they have a responsblity to assimilate into that country. i think immigration for australia has being a great thing and not just avoiding an english diet of meat and 3 veg 7 days a week. they don't have to accept the religion but they MUST learn the language. small areas where immigrants can live without learning a single word of german in this case is a terribly bad scenario.

I semi agree, but where is the cut off point? You shouldn't neccasarily have to assimilate , but you shoudl learn to communicate, and respect the traditions and laws of the country you are moving to. What I'm saying is, if you move to a country and then hate and protest everything about that country, then "fuck you," please get the fuck out. But I do not expect people who move to America to love John Wayne, learn English, and become a Christian. But if you move here and try and start a cult to overthrow America, well your not going to make it for long.

i think you've said exactly what i was trying to say.....