I know many of usare secular humanists and the vast majority here share open disdain for nationalism, but do you ever wonder what muslim immigrants think?



Differing opinions
Jun 18th 2007
From Economist.com

OF FIVE Western countries polled by the Pew Research Centre, Muslims in Britain were the most likely to identify themselves by religion rather than nationality. A massive 81% considered themselves Muslim first. This was higher than in Spain or America, two other countries in which terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists have been carried out. Indeed, in America, only 47% of Muslims thought of themselves in this way, marginally more than in France. Perhaps a shared background of revolution, a written constitution and promotion of national values explains the similarities between responses in France and America: 62% of Muslims in both countries thought life was better for women there than in Muslim countries. By contrast, a mere 46% of Spanish Muslims agreed.

France had terrorist attackes just about every weekend for a while from their Muslim population just on a smaller scale. So please don't overlook reality to try to make a point.
I am more comfortable with people identifying themselves witha religion than a country. People can change their religion, it's much hard to change your country of birth. Nationalism shares a lot of traits with religious fundamentalism - lack of critical thinking especially when assessing their own actions, ignoring reality that does not fit their paradigm, a feeling of cultural superiority.

It's kind of loaded too considering the word Islam itself means complete surrender to God. The first stats don't shock me one bit. The second set is making me think.

Huh? If it appeared that I was trying to make a point, let me assure you, it was completely by accident.

Sorry, I did not make my self clear. The writer you used ignored reality to try to make his/her point.

Ok, and what was his/her point and how did it evade reality? Came across as quite objective to me, all they did was rehash the numbers.

The reality missed out on was overlooking France's ongoing small scale terrorist attacks. Now the writer did not say these attacks didn't happen but is obviously trying to draw a correlation between religion over natlionalism in Britain, Spain and America and terrorist attacks, and the lack of attacks in France due to the lower identification as a muslim than being French. But attacks have happened in France. Of course there's a big chance I'm trying to read way too much into what has been given.

The attacks in France had a lot more to do with overt racism in France than religious identification.

Were the survey respondents an even mix of men and women?

They must have searched for quite a while to find an attractive looking Muslim female to put in that picture.



I'm going to hell.

You might be over-analyzing it a bit, but I see your point. The graph doesn't account activities in France which you deem terrorism. I understand how this could be warranted, but for the sake of argument you have to draw the line somewhere.

Civil unrest, no matter how pronounced, does not always equate to terrorism. For example, the L.A. riots following the Rodney King verdict were not terrorism per se. Why? Individual groups, such as the Crypts and Bloods didn't exploit the action for political purpose, or claim responsibility for the riots themselves.

The question is...Do those muslims stand for democracy and freedom of belief?

Since no one seems to know, let's assume it's 50/50. Now look at the second question, '% of Muslims who think life is better for women in this country than in Muslim countries'.

About half of the respondents said yes. Mostly women?
This is a problem.. either men think women are better off being repressed as they are in many Muslim countries (generalising) which is implicit in the claim, or women are somehow more disadvantaged by being in these western countries... which I doubt.

Just kind of circling around on the point here

Shut up.

Please.

That didn't even occur to me, but I think it is an extremely important question now that you bring it up. It potentially makes that statistic completely arbitrary.

Seriously vacate.

You haven't seen the suffering kids, the women and children begging for water and bread, the desolation americans bring to the beautiful muslim countries. The beautiful muslim women and children love to wear the most ingenious garments ever created in the blistering deserts of their homelands, and they live their lives as free as they could ever imagine wanting to be. Life is bliss for the muslim women in their home country.

The fact that you even question that makes me want to run over your head with an aircraft carrier.

I think many Muslim women do not place much value on the civil liberties they enjoy in western countries. Very few Muslim women come to the West unmarried, by the time they relocate they are under the thumb of a repressive male and indoctrinated with sexist dogma. This problem is compounded by the fact that they are often ostracized in the west. Under these circumstances how could they possibly feel more independent or free? Perhaps the next generation of Muslim women, those born in the west, will have a greater appreciation.

it's interesting that it says "particular nationality" instead of explicitly identifying with the countries in question. the France number seems really low to me - i know dbf threw out a theory, anybody else have any ideas?

Britain being on top doesn't surprise me at all.

Yeah, you're an idiot and a jackass too.

All Muslim women are good for is tight vagie's thanks to the FGM, and makin babies. And they all know it too.

Agreed although I think they are as equally disturbing as each other. The notion that because you are born within a particular man-made border makes you any better/worse than anyone is something that concerns me.