A thought from the past...a question, if you will....as to OUR relevance to Iraq:

A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability.

John F. Kennedy

We took Hussein out of power, and everything looked fine. Now, fundamentalist islamic 'soldiers' are coming from everywhere to try and kill our troops. I was thinking about this the other day, no matter how many of these insurgents we kill in Iraq they will keep fighting because it is their belief, they do not care to die for this cause, they do not want us to Americanize Iraq, so they will not stop flooding into this place and killing our troops until our troops leave. We need to just admit we fucked up and taking over a country isn't as easy as it was back in the 1300's.

So, we've done everything to help and maybe it wasn't enough but we got the ball rolling, now it's time to leave.

I give Capitalism 200 years

but leaving and abandoning those people isn't the right course of action either. i do not support this war or any of its causes. i want the soldiers home as badly as anyone. but it wouldn't be fair. "well we liberated you, but tough shit youre on your own now" - that mentality is why the middle east hates us. we tell them we will be there when they overthrow their leaders and start revolutions but are we? no.

we have to at least establish a solid pathway to some kind of homeostatic environment over there. i want us out, but it just wouldn't be fair to these people who have endured far too much already.

amen sister macjunkie

heh, what world are you living in?

When, exactly, did Iraq "look fine?"

Well, we overthrew their leader (Iran in the 1950s), and that created an even bigger mess. Not sure what you are getting at there.

But I do agree with you that we need to give a good attempt at a positive solution there.

*makes popcorn, watches*

--PunkDavid

I was totally gonna say that yesterday. Did you pull some sort of Vulcan mind-meld on me over the Interweb David?

*pulls tubes, makes more popcorn, watches, changes channel*

--PunkDavid

By looking fine I meant, in the initial stages of this war it looked like it would be over in less than a month. Our president even told us 'major combat operations are over.' But you can quickly learn how full of shit somebody is.

I'd argue that we're no longer in a war. War is a battle between armies/countries.
What we have now is the US trying to establish government and infrastructure while terrorists attack US and Iraqi troops, civilians, etc. This isn't war anymore, it's terrorism.

But what did you really expect? The most powerful military force ever assembled was going to nothing but smash a pip-squeak third world army. It was obvious that there wouldn't be much military resistance and it should have been obvious that given how the war was conducted that there would be resistance afterwards. If you do 'have' to invade and conquer a country you have to do it with overwhelming force. You must bomb, burn, rape, and pillage the countryside to the point where the people left alive will accept any form of government thrust upon them just to make the war stop. It's what won World War II in Germany and Japan, and it's what has not been used since. Ironically the United States has never "won" a war in that period of time. Korea is still divided, Vietnam did more for music than it did for the military's image, Iraq I was just kicking an army out of a country - not invading and taking over the invading country, and Iraq II... well... Mission Accomplished

You rule.

i'd say it's urban guerrilla, with iraqis trying to free their country from an invader. like Vietnam. hand to hand battles, civilian casualties, sickness, shortage of food and medical supplies. yankees, go home. send in the red cross, the doctors without borders. they won't give up, it's a religious quest for them, the jihad, the holy war. retreat while you can, before more valuable lives are wasted in this madness.IMO

sending in NGO's sounds like a spiffy idea except we've gone ahead and screwed up the image of anyone not-brown so badly over there, the volunteers will just get killed as well. What was the name of that woman who was working for an aid organization and lived in Iraq for a few decades... and she was killed anyhow?

We've created a wonderful mess for ourselves, and theirselves, over there.

If we would have taken the time and effort to properly train Iraqi policemen and troops, instead of putting civilians in cop and solider uniforms with some sorry ass training we would be in a better situation right now. If our troops were gone that would take out the American element, on the ground (There would still be the American element of taking over the country) But, you can't do anything about that now. My thinking is, we have set up some type of government in Iraq, and the terrorists might eventually die out if they knew they were killing their own people, being Iraqi soliders if they had properly been trained in the first place.

We will never leave Iraq. The idea is absurd. If we were to leave, how the hell do you think we'd secure all that oil? We need troops on the ground for the next 10 years to get that country to a point of minimal security and a way for us Americans to still get $2 a gallon.

I've used this analogy before. The Bush Administration has created a child, Iraq War. This child, which should have been aborted prior to it's birth (invasion of Iraq) was not. It is now alive and living. You cannot kill it now, which would be similar to leaving Iraq right now. We must stay and deal with what this Administration has concieved. Even though it was done outta lies and deceit. They knew this all the while. Once it's born, there is no turning back. That's why all the lies were needed, from Uranium from Niger to Stockpiles of Chemical and Biological weapons. Once we're in, we're in, no getting out. But we gotta get in first.

No wonder they want to overturn Roe v Wade.

--PunkDavid

but when we overthrew iran's head of state in the 50s we didn't follow through and help them sort it out, exactly why it was an even bigger mess. its just what we always do. get rid of saddam but then what. we never seem to consider what is going to happen after the fall of the current government.