ASHINGTON, Feb. 27 - One federal court upheld them as a symbol of the country's devotion to its legal heritage. Another federal court ordered them removed as an illicit message of religious endorsement. Fifteen months ago, Alabama's chief justice lost his job over them, and the two-ton granite monument that once sat in the rotunda of the state courthouse is now the star of a national tour. The profile of the Ten Commandments, it seems, has rarely been higher, or their ability to attract lawsuits greater.
Now, as with all great controversies in American life, this one has finally reached the Supreme Court. In two cases to be argued on Wednesday, the basic question for the justices will be: what does it mean for the government to display a copy of the Ten Commandments?
To those who seek removal of the displays - a six-foot red granite monument that has sat since 1961 on the grounds of the Texas Capitol, and framed copies of the Ten Commandments that were hung five years ago on the walls of two Kentucky courthouses - the meaning is as obvious as it is impermissibly sectarian.
"There is no secular purpose in placing on government property a monument declaring 'I am the Lord thy God,' " Prof. Erwin Chemerinsky of Duke University Law School wrote in his brief for Thomas Van Orden, an Austin resident who has so far been unsuccessful in his challenge to the Texas monument. It is one of thousands placed around the country in the 1950's and 1960's by the Fraternal Order of Eagles with the support of Cecil B. DeMille, the director, who was promoting his movie "The Ten Commandments."
"The government is not supposed to be for religion or against religion," Douglas Laycock, a professor and associate dean at the University of Texas School of Law, said in a discussion of the cases here on Thursday sponsored by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. "You don't put up a sign you disagree with, and the government doesn't disagree with these."
At the same event, Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, a law firm established by the Rev. Pat Robertson that litigates for evangelicals and other religious communities, offered a different perspective. The Ten Commandments have acquired secular as well as religious meaning, he said, and have come to be "uniquely symbolic of law."
Mr. Sekulow noted that the marble frieze in the courtroom of the Supreme Court Building itself depicts Moses, holding the tablets, in a procession of "great lawgivers of history." (The 17 other figures in the frieze include Hammurabi, Confucius, Justinian, Napoleon, Chief Justice John Marshall and Muhammad, who holds the Koran.) "Does the Supreme Court now issue an opinion that requires a sandblaster to come in? I think not," Mr. Sekulow said.
The Bush administration, which has filed briefs urging the justices to uphold the displays in both cases, takes the same approach, calling the Ten Commandments "a uniquely potent and commonly recognized symbol of the law."
Professor Laycock, who filed a brief on behalf of the Baptist Joint Committee against the display in the Texas case, Van Orden v. Perry, No. 03-1500, disparaged as "sham litigation" the effort to depict the Commandments as anything other than profoundly religious. To defend the Commandments as a historical or legal document is "to desacralize a sacred text, to rip it out of context and distort its meaning and significance," he said. "It ought to be unconvincing to people outside the religious tradition and insulting to those within it."
The debate over the Ten Commandments is reminiscent of the debate before the court a year ago over the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, which an atheist from California, Michael A. Newdow, challenged as an unconstitutional establishment of religion and the Bush administration defended as a historical reflection of the country's spiritual roots. The court never resolved the issue, eventually dismissing the case on the ground that Dr. Newdow had lacked standing to bring it.
The Pledge case nonetheless drew an illuminating separate opinion from Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who has often cast the deciding vote in religion cases. She called the words "under God" an example of "ceremonial deism," which she defined as the use of religious idiom for "essentially secular purposes" that does not offend the Constitution.
Whether Justice O'Connor will take a similar view of the Ten Commandments is anyone's guess. On the one hand, the Commandments contain not two words but approximately 120, closer to the 100-word high school graduation prayer that Justice O'Connor found unconstitutional in a 1992 case.
On the other hand, while the Pledge is recited each morning in public school classrooms, creating a powerful government message that is difficult to ignore even for those children who exercise their constitutional right not to participate, the Ten Commandments stand mute. People who do not feel drawn to a monument or framed depiction can avert their eyes and walk on by.
Clearly, context matters, although exactly how it matters is open to debate, as the Kentucky case, McCreary County v. A.C.L.U. of Kentucky, No. 03-1693, demonstrates. The case began in 1999, when the American Civil Liberties Union challenged the display of the Ten Commandments, hanging unadorned in solitary frames in the McCreary County and Pulaski County Courthouses.
The counties quickly modified the displays to include the texts of the Declaration of Independence, the Mayflower Compact, "The Star-Spangled Banner," the Bill of Rights, and several other images that the counties named, collectively, the "foundations of American law and government."
Nonetheless, the federal district court in London, Ky., ordered the entire display removed, and the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, in Cincinnati, agreed. It held that the "foundations" documents as a collective retained the "unconstitutional taint" of the original, solitary Ten Commandments display.
The counties' lawyers at Liberty Counsel, a Florida-based organization affiliated with Liberty University, whose chancellor is the Rev. Jerry Falwell, object in their brief that "no reasonable observer would consider the Foundations Display an endorsement of religion."
In the Texas case, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans, upheld the Texas monument on essentially that basis, finding that "a reasonable viewer touring the Capitol and its grounds" would find a predominantly secular rather than religious message in the Ten Commandments, one of 17 monuments in a 22-acre park that carries a designation as a national historic landmark.
One question is whether the court will try to derive a broad principle from the pair of cases or whether it will stress the distinct facts of each. Another question is the standard for judging governmental displays with religious content. Justice O'Connor has long advocated an "endorsement" test: does the government appear to be endorsing religion to the extent that a nonbeliever would be made to feel an outsider?
Other touchstones for the court's analysis in such cases include an evaluation of "purpose," "effect," and - sometimes present but never acknowledged - politics. "Supreme Court Strikes Down Ten Commandments" is a headline that few Supreme Court justices want to read.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
StyrofoamChicken wrote:
Only two of the 10 Commandments are actually illegal.
AirAmerica says 3, but they don't list which ones, so I'm not sure which ones they're talking about.
I think kill, steal, and bear false witness (purgery or slander).
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Last edited by ¡B! on Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just for the record ... I used the search tool and there was NO WAY I could have known that was a Ten Commandments thread.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:59 am Posts: 18643 Location: Raleigh, NC Gender: Male
I think most of societies' problems could be solved if we just had the 10 Commandments posted in more places, especially government buildings. That would do a lot of good.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
Athletic Supporter wrote:
I think most of societies' problems could be solved if we just had the 10 Commandments posted in more places, especially government buildings. That would do a lot of good.
Me, I'm always forgetting the Sabbath Day, and to keep it holy.
--PunkDavid
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
punkdavid wrote:
Athletic Supporter wrote:
I think most of societies' problems could be solved if we just had the 10 Commandments posted in more places, especially government buildings. That would do a lot of good.
Me, I'm always forgetting the Sabbath Day, and to keep it holy.
--PunkDavid
I have 3 gods before the Lord my God.
Money, Beer, and Sex
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
just_b wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Athletic Supporter wrote:
I think most of societies' problems could be solved if we just had the 10 Commandments posted in more places, especially government buildings. That would do a lot of good.
Me, I'm always forgetting the Sabbath Day, and to keep it holy.
--PunkDavid
I have 3 gods before the Lord my God.
Money, Beer, and Sex
Shame on you. If the Ten Commandments were posted on the wall at your local courthouse, you might have remembered not to do that.
--PunkDavid
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
punkdavid wrote:
just_b wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Athletic Supporter wrote:
I think most of societies' problems could be solved if we just had the 10 Commandments posted in more places, especially government buildings. That would do a lot of good.
Me, I'm always forgetting the Sabbath Day, and to keep it holy.
--PunkDavid
I have 3 gods before the Lord my God.
Money, Beer, and Sex
Shame on you. If the Ten Commandments were posted on the wall at your local courthouse, you might have remembered not to do that.
--PunkDavid
If they posted that in my courthouse, I would go out of my way to find 2 more gods. I'll have to check. I live in the South. They might already be posted.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Rev. Patrick Mahony, Director of the Christian Defense Coalition wrote:
The court should be very careful to respect the viewpoint of the overwhelming majority of the American people," said Mahoney. "The Ten Commandments do not divide Americans; they unite Americans.
The Supreme Court isn't your fucking elected representatives. It's there job to interpret the Constitution. If they only ruled with respect to what the majority of Americans wanted, Blacks would still be property.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:13 pm Posts: 2948 Location: Caucusland
punkdavid wrote:
Athletic Supporter wrote:
I think most of societies' problems could be solved if we just had the 10 Commandments posted in more places, especially government buildings. That would do a lot of good.
Me, I'm always forgetting the Sabbath Day, and to keep it holy.
--PunkDavid
As are about 100,000,000 Christians.
_________________
Bob Knight wrote:
When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down so my critics can kiss my ass.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
Merrill Stubing wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Athletic Supporter wrote:
I think most of societies' problems could be solved if we just had the 10 Commandments posted in more places, especially government buildings. That would do a lot of good.
Me, I'm always forgetting the Sabbath Day, and to keep it holy.
--PunkDavid
As are about 100,000,000 Christians.
I'd say they all forgot. I tell ya, the Pope goes on a three-day bender back in the 2nd century, loses a whole day in there, and voila, the Sabbath becomes Sunday.
--PunkDavid
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Bump! Ruling coming today.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Quote:
Court: No Ten Commandments in Courthouses By HOPE YEN, Associated Press Writer 10 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - A split Supreme Court struck down Ten Commandments displays in courthouses Monday, ruling that two exhibits in Kentucky cross the line between separation of church and state because they promote a religious message.
The 5-4 decision was the first of two seeking to mediate the bitter culture war over religion's place in public life. In it, the court declined to prohibit all displays in court buildings or on government property. Justices left legal wiggle room, saying that some displays — like their own courtroom frieze — would be permissible if they're portrayed neutrally in order to honor the nation's legal history.
But framed copies in two Kentucky courthouses went too far in endorsing religion, the court held.
"The touchstone for our analysis is the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion," Justice David H. Souter wrote for the majority.
"When the government acts with the ostensible and predominant purpose of advancing religion, it violates tha central Establishment clause value of official religious neutrality," he said.
Souter was joined in his opinion by other members of the liberal bloc — Justices John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer, as well as Reagan appointee Sandra Day O'Connor, who provided the swing vote.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Last edited by ¡B! on Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
A little more info ...
Quote:
Court: No Ten Commandments in Courthouses By HOPE YEN, Associated Press Writer 6 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - In a narrowly drawn ruling, the Supreme Court struck down Ten Commandments displays in courthouses Monday, holding that two exhibits in Kentucky crossed the line between separation of church and state because they promoted a religious message.
The 5-4 decision, first of two seeking to mediate the bitter culture war over religion's place in public life, took a case-by-case approach to this vexing issue. In the decision, the court declined to prohibit all displays in court buildings or on government property.
In a stinging dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia worried publicly about "the dictatorship of a shifting Supreme Court majority."
The justices voting on the prevailing side Monday left themselves legal wiggle room on this issue, however, saying that some displays — like their own courtroom frieze — would be permissible if they're portrayed neutrally in order to honor the nation's legal history.
But framed copies in two Kentucky courthouses went too far in endorsing religion, the court held.
"The touchstone for our analysis is the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion," Justice David H. Souter wrote for the majority.
"When the government acts with the ostensible and predominant purpose of advancing religion, it violates that central Establishment clause value of official religious neutrality," he said.
Souter was joined in his opinion by other members of the liberal bloc — Justices John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer, as well as Reagan appointee Sandra Day O'Connor, who provided the swing vote.
In his dissent, Scalia argued that Ten Commandments displays are a legitimate tribute to the nation's religious and legal history.
Government officials may have had a religious purpose when they originally posted the Ten Commandments display by itself in 1999. But their efforts to dilute the religious message since then by hanging other historical documents in the courthouses made it constitutionally adequate, Scalia said.
In his dissent, Scalia blasted the majority for ignoring the rule of law to push their own personal policy preferences.
"What distinguishes the rule of law from the dictatorship of a shifting Supreme Court majority is the absolutely indispensable requirement that judicial opinions be grounded in consistently applied principle," Scalia wrote.
He was joined in his opinion by Chief William H. Rehnquist, as well as Justice Anthony Kennedy and Clarence Thomas.
"In the court's view , the impermissible motive was apparent from the initial displays of the Ten Commandments all by themselves: When that occurs: the Court says, a religious object is unmistakable," he wrote. "Surely that cannot be."
"The Commandments have a proper place in our civil history," Scalia wrote.
The case was one of two heard by the Supreme Court in March involving Ten Commandments displays in Kentucky and Texas. That case asks whether the Ten Commandments may be displayed on the grounds outside the state capitol.
The cases marked the first time since 1980 the high court tackled the emotional issue, in a courtroom boasting a wall carving of Moses holding the sacred tablets.
A broader ruling than the one rendered Monday could have determined the allowable role of religion in a wide range of public contexts, from the use of religious music in a school concert to students' recitation of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. It is a question that has sharply divided the lower courts in recent years.
But in their ruling Monday, justices chose to stick with a cautious case-by-case approach.
Two Kentucky counties originally hung the copies of the Ten Commandments in their courthouses. After the ACLU filed suit, the counties modified their displays to add other documents demonstrating "America's Christian heritage," including the national motto of "In God We Trust" and a version of the Congressional Record declaring 1983 the "Year of the Bible."
When a federal court ruled those displays had the effect of endorsing religion, the counties erected a third Ten Commandments display with surrounding documents such as the Bill of Rights and Star-Spangled Banner to highlight their role in "our system of law and government."
The Cincinnati-based 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal subsequently struck down the third display as a "sham" for the religious intent behind it.
Ten Commandments displays are supported by a majority of Americans, according to an AP-Ipsos poll. The poll taken in late February found that 76 percent support it and 23 percent oppose it.
The last time the Supreme Court weighed in on the issue was 1980, when it struck down a Kentucky law requiring Ten Commandments displays in public classrooms.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
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just kiddin'