I think patriotism is bad for the world

Who are 'we' and what is 'better', and why? It's all relative. I guess people in every country are indoctrinated to think their army is the best, and their industry is, and their everything else... If you are not critical about things like that, you're bound to be more patriotic than 'necessary'.

groetjes,
Mirella

i'm not talking about the army, industry or anything like that. i'm talking about as a whole, the actions and quality of life for everyone within a society.

still is extremely subjective.
and also perceived very differently depending which part of society you belong to and your own personal circumstance.
Don't think that someone unemployed living in a run down housing estate and someone living in a leafy suburb on a hedge fund will have the same idea of what's 'great' about their country..
people living even in the same town might have very widely different daily experience of life, as much as if they were in different countries.

what about societies that execute homosexuals and "witches," practice honor killings, and throw women in jail for having coffee with a man? these are not subjective events.

That's a second sin against multiculturalism in the same thread. You need to bash wealthy white male christian conservatives for the next 10 posts.

there's no need for one to completely drop his culture in return for ending the suffering of innocent people within it.

person a: hey, you need to stop murdering women for being raped.
person b: wait, what!? no way!
person a: yes. oh, and witches ... they don't really exist. we dropped that a few hundred years ago.
person b: wrong! i know a guy who became infertile after a witch put a spell on him. they turn into cats! very deceptive folk, you know.
person a: uh, no. sorry. also, women deserve freedoms like men have, too.
person b: no!!!!! our entire culture, down the drain!!!!!

'Partriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' - Bob Dylan

What about societies that largely abandon familial and cultural ties in order to worship material goods and end up facing widescale anomie and depression? It's subjective.

one does not need to completely drop his/her culture just because he or she stops murdering and jailing innocent people.

I am very much for the human rights, for instance as laid down right after WWII. And I think countries who can guarantee those rights somehow, are 'better' in that aspect than the ones who can't, or won't. But that has not much to do with patriotism, in my point of view. In fact, the most 'bad' countries on that point seem to have the highest amounts of patriots .
And it's not only fundamentalist islamitic countries. My own country is doing bad on children's rights at this moment concerning refugees, and another example is Guantanomo Bay.

groetjes,
Mirella

I love you
Can't wait to meet you, we're going to have a grand time in 2 weeks

I think the fact that people dedicate themselves to improving their countries proves it is not subjective.

Does it prove that patriotism, as opposed to nationlism, jingoism, and xenophobia, can be a positive force?

heh, you will be so disappointed



That's a sure thing! Maybe you can try and let them play Rats

groetjes,
Mirella

I think so, but I'm bound to be wrong.

I don't think a desire to improve your country necessarily makes you a patriot.

I always found american patriotism weird, in the sense that americans are always told to be patriotic about their nation's ideals and "way of life" while forgetting that there are a lot of other countries in the world with the same ideals. I feel like americans are made to believe that the US is the only country in the world where one can live "free".

Just an outsider's perspective...

Our constitution has been the model for many others and our revolution inspired a lot of the turmoil of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, for better or worse, so there's actually a basis for that. It is blown way out of proportion though.