Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 2:35 am Posts: 18585 Location: In a box Gender: Male
I'm not proud I'm white --I do feel lucky though since I don't have to face bullshit racism which is still prevalent today-- neither do I feel any attachment to the religion I was born into. I don't care about the nations my ancestors came from, I'll celebrate St. Patrick's day and eat pasta and experience what each culture has to offer.
I really see no point in Patriotism. I don't see why people need parades for their countries or heritages either. So you were born white/black/hispanic and your from puerto rico/Ireland/whatever... who cares? It's not like you had to do anything special or that it was any type of accomplishment. There are some underlying feelings of superiority in it methinks, even if some people say otherwise.
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:37 am Posts: 3610 Location: London, UK Gender: Female
PJ10alive41 wrote:
potatowave wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
JimNasium wrote:
It's pretty stupid. Amirite?
yep, since no-one chooses where they're born.
MLK jr. didn't choose to be born black, but that does not make it wrong form him to be proud of black accomplishments. Palestinians didn't choose to born there, but I see nothing wrong with their desire to have a nation they can be proud to call their own.
I don't really see much difference between being patriotic and being a fan of a particular football club. It's not that you necessarily hate the other clubs or their fans, but you fell happy when your team wins and criticize it's leaders when it fails. One could say that America is the NY Yankees of the political world.
difference is you're not BORN in a sport team, you just pick one.
supporting a country/culture/religion/race just because that's what you were born in is stupid and ignorant. yes, you can be proud of some aspects of it... and extremely critical of most of the rest if you think it's bullshit!
to me Patriot = brain-washed canon fodder... it's the blindfold people in power have used for centuries, along with religion, to get regular people to die killing another bunch of regular people, so they themselves can get more power...
the only people you'll catch me risking my life for are people I love and care about: my family, and my friends, all of them are from other parts of the world than the one I came from!
basically, you should be an individual, with free will and an independent and critical mind!
Stupid and ignorant is assuming that other people should view things as you do without trying to understand their point of view. Labelling people is too easy. Doesn't require an indepenent and critical mind. It's the laziest kind of assessment.
Your view that a patriot is prepared to be brain washed canon fodder in all cases is offensive. That is not how all patriots are. To some being a patriot is simply an extension of their love of family, community and shared experience, a desire to see the advancement of the uniqueness of their shared experience with fellow compatriots. A desire to promote the positive aspects of their home. You don't ask to be born into family either, I might add, and have no control over who you get as family but still we manage loyalty to them. Choose loyalty to them. Being a patriot doesn't have to mean that you are willing to kill or be racist or a bully. It can mean a lot of things that I don't think some people fully appreciate anymore because of the heinous things that some people and countries have done in the name of patriotism.
Thank you PW. I was going to post a critical response to Pegasus, but you pretty much said what I was thinking.
Oh, Pegasus...the vast majority of professional athletes don't pick their respective teams...they get drafted. Your comparison fails...but not as bad as this thread does.
he was talking about fans not athletes, and even most athletes do chose (only for the national teams they don't).
Potatowave, what you describe still means an allegiance to a group of people just because they share 1 thing with you (nationality, ethnicity, religion..). Not because you know them as individual. It's still a them against us mentality. A 'we're better' attitude. The same sentiment that creates racism, xenophopia, homophobia, jihads and crusades.. just to a milder degree.
It's human, we all do it but that doesn't make it right or reasonable and it's something I believe one should strive to avoid.
_________________ 2009 was a great year for PJ gigs looking forward to 2010 and: Columbus, Noblesville, Cleveland, Buffalo, Dublin, Belfast, London, Nijmegen, Berlin, Arras, Werchter, Lisbon, some more US (wherever is the Anniversary show/a birthday show)
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
Pegasus wrote:
PJ10alive41 wrote:
potatowave wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
JimNasium wrote:
It's pretty stupid. Amirite?
yep, since no-one chooses where they're born.
MLK jr. didn't choose to be born black, but that does not make it wrong form him to be proud of black accomplishments. Palestinians didn't choose to born there, but I see nothing wrong with their desire to have a nation they can be proud to call their own.
I don't really see much difference between being patriotic and being a fan of a particular football club. It's not that you necessarily hate the other clubs or their fans, but you fell happy when your team wins and criticize it's leaders when it fails. One could say that America is the NY Yankees of the political world.
difference is you're not BORN in a sport team, you just pick one.
supporting a country/culture/religion/race just because that's what you were born in is stupid and ignorant. yes, you can be proud of some aspects of it... and extremely critical of most of the rest if you think it's bullshit!
to me Patriot = brain-washed canon fodder... it's the blindfold people in power have used for centuries, along with religion, to get regular people to die killing another bunch of regular people, so they themselves can get more power...
the only people you'll catch me risking my life for are people I love and care about: my family, and my friends, all of them are from other parts of the world than the one I came from!
basically, you should be an individual, with free will and an independent and critical mind!
Stupid and ignorant is assuming that other people should view things as you do without trying to understand their point of view. Labelling people is too easy. Doesn't require an indepenent and critical mind. It's the laziest kind of assessment.
Your view that a patriot is prepared to be brain washed canon fodder in all cases is offensive. That is not how all patriots are. To some being a patriot is simply an extension of their love of family, community and shared experience, a desire to see the advancement of the uniqueness of their shared experience with fellow compatriots. A desire to promote the positive aspects of their home. You don't ask to be born into family either, I might add, and have no control over who you get as family but still we manage loyalty to them. Choose loyalty to them. Being a patriot doesn't have to mean that you are willing to kill or be racist or a bully. It can mean a lot of things that I don't think some people fully appreciate anymore because of the heinous things that some people and countries have done in the name of patriotism.
Thank you PW. I was going to post a critical response to Pegasus, but you pretty much said what I was thinking.
Oh, Pegasus...the vast majority of professional athletes don't pick their respective teams...they get drafted. Your comparison fails...but not as bad as this thread does.
he was talking about fans not athletes, and even most athletes do chose (only for the national teams they don't).
Potatowave, what you describe still means an allegiance to a group of people just because they share 1 thing with you (nationality, ethnicity, religion..). Not because you know them as individual. It's still a them against us mentality. A 'we're better' attitude. The same sentiment that creates racism, xenophopia, homophobia, jihads and crusades.. just to a milder degree.
It's human, we all do it but that doesn't make it right or reasonable and it's something I believe one should strive to avoid.
Wow, talk about drawing a multitude of irrelevant conclusions...
If I were to draw your belief out to the extent you are indicating is necessary, everything down to living and breathing constitutes some measure of an "I'm better" attitude, so I suppose we should strive to avoid that, yes?
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:37 pm Posts: 7376 Location: Vlaardingen, Netherlands Gender: Female
I don't like patriotism or nationalism, even though I can understand it when people are over-enthousiastic about what they know. The reason I don't like it is because of the downside: it's common to like other countries (or people, races, sport clubs, whatever) less. And we've all seen how horribly wrong that can end, with wars and other injustice. It's good if you love your country, or city, or continent, whatever. But being proud is a bit weird, since it's not an accomplishment but a fact of randomness. Given the fact that you live somewhere, of course you can be proud of how you behave and how your ancestors behaved, and what you've worked for or fought for, or suffered together. But I think it's kinda silly to link that to the place. But I also think borders are stupid, so I'm a bit radical here . Some people like the sea, others like the woods, but it's not really a choice were you were born and what you know, what language is your mother tongue or what color your skin is. I'm 'proud' of my country in some ways, 'ashamed' of it in other ways. And that's okay if you can say why. As soon as you are a patriot or nationalist 'just because', it's stupid.
groetjes, Mirella (I hope that made sense)
_________________ 93 Rdm2x 96 D L2x Ber Gro Ams Par Zür 00 L2x D Gla Man Car Par Pin Pra Kat2x Sal Lju Ver Ber Ham Ros L 01 BSB2x Sea2x 06 D Arn Ant Bern Bol Ver Mil Tor Pis Pra Ber Vie Zag 07 L Düs Nij Wer 09 L Rdm Ber Man L 10 D Belf L Ber 12 Am2x EV:Am2x
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
what if we are better?
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
broken iris wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
what if we are better?
You fail at multiculturalism.
i'm not advocating the destruction of cultures worldwide. but what if america is better than saudi arabia and iran? is it conceited to admit that some countries are just better, or more civilized, than others?
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:15 pm Posts: 25452 Location: Under my wing like Sanford & Son Gender: Male
I'm far from being a flag waving idiot, but I'm still extremely proud of a lot of uniquely American things like our Constitution and Jazz and and all sorts of other stuff, and I have no problem celebrating those. To me "patriotism" has many connotations, and not all of them are negative. But those of you who hate it really just need to post all of Emma Goldman's quotes. No one's ever going to put those arguments better.
_________________ Now that god no longer exists, the desire for another world still remains.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
Quote:
Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a 'fatherland', by individuals and groups. The 'fatherland' (or 'motherland') can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state. Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation. Patriotism is closely associated with nationalism, and the terms are often used synonymously. Strictly speaking, nationalism is an ideology - but it often promotes patriotic attitudes as desirable and appropriate. (Both nationalist political movements, and patriotic expression, may, yet need not, be negative towards other people's 'fatherland').
i don't think i have a problem with patriotism.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
tryinmorning wrote:
I really see no point in Patriotism. I don't see why people need parades for their countries or heritages either. So you were born white/black/hispanic and your from puerto rico/Ireland/whatever... who cares? It's not like you had to do anything special or that it was any type of accomplishment. There are some underlying feelings of superiority in it methinks, even if some people say otherwise.
hm.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:02 pm Posts: 237 Location: here Gender: Female
Pegasus wrote:
Potatowave, what you describe still means an allegiance to a group of people just because they share 1 thing with you (nationality, ethnicity, religion..). Not because you know them as individual. It's still a them against us mentality. A 'we're better' attitude. The same sentiment that creates racism, xenophopia, homophobia, jihads and crusades.. just to a milder degree.
It's human, we all do it but that doesn't make it right or reasonable and it's something I believe one should strive to avoid.
What I described is what you see as a group of people sharing one thing the same as myself. That's not how I see it at all. I don't see it as a "them against us mentality" or that "we're better" nor do I see it as creating racism, xenophobia, homophobia, jihads and crusades. Some people will misinterpret patriotism as including those things but not everyone. Hence patriotism being hijacked. I see it as these people that live here with me are united by a common experience, shared common goals, a desire to work together, to be inclusive, to protect our unique landscapes, culture and creatures and to advance our country and its ideals. A larger version of supporting one's family and community. As far as I can see there's nothing wrong with that. Holding on to the positive aspects of one's uniqueness and culture is not a bad thing.
Last edited by potatowave on Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 2:35 am Posts: 18585 Location: In a box Gender: Male
corduroy_blazer wrote:
tryinmorning wrote:
I really see no point in Patriotism. I don't see why people need parades for their countries or heritages either. So you were born white/black/hispanic and your from puerto rico/Ireland/whatever... who cares? It's not like you had to do anything special or that it was any type of accomplishment. There are some underlying feelings of superiority in it methinks, even if some people say otherwise.
I really see no point in Patriotism. I don't see why people need parades for their countries or heritages either. So you were born white/black/hispanic and your from puerto rico/Ireland/whatever... who cares? It's not like you had to do anything special or that it was any type of accomplishment. There are some underlying feelings of superiority in it methinks, even if some people say otherwise.
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 2:35 am Posts: 18585 Location: In a box Gender: Male
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Quote:
Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation.
The funny thing is that in the Christian religion pride is supposed to be a sin, but I would expect most Christian Americans to feel patriotic.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
conoalias wrote:
tryinmorning wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
tryinmorning wrote:
I really see no point in Patriotism. I don't see why people need parades for their countries or heritages either. So you were born white/black/hispanic and your from puerto rico/Ireland/whatever... who cares? It's not like you had to do anything special or that it was any type of accomplishment. There are some underlying feelings of superiority in it methinks, even if some people say otherwise.
hm.
what are you thinking?
*gets ready*
patriotism seems to be a waste of resources. i have more to say but let's start there (i had a lot of beer tonight).
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
If you want the better for your country, you are being a patriot. If you think that patriotism is bad for your country, you are being patriot.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
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. Some people like the sea, others like the woods, but it's not really a choice were you were born and what you know, what language is your mother tongue or what color your skin is.
