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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:37 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Our constitution has been the model for many others and our revolution inspired a lot of the turmoil of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, for better or worse, so there's actually a basis for that. It is blown way out of proportion though.


I understand the importance of the constitution and how it was a model for other nations... but being the first doesn't mean you're the best or only. It's the 21st century- shouldn't that notion been put to rest centuries ago?


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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:37 pm 
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corduroy11 wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Our constitution has been the model for many others and our revolution inspired a lot of the turmoil of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, for better or worse, so there's actually a basis for that. It is blown way out of proportion though.


I understand the importance of the constitution and how it was a model for other nations... but being the first doesn't mean you're the best or only. It's the 21st century- shouldn't that notion been put to rest centuries ago?


There actually are very few Federal systems, which is probably one of the strong points of the US system. Almost all of Europe are Unitary systems, which seem to be far less oriented towards individual rights and the protection thereof. While many Europeans share many of the same ideals with Americans, the method by which they govern can have a significant effect on how those ideals are acted upon.


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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:42 pm 
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Unitary systems make a lot more sense to me. Civil and human rights are universal. The idea of having individual states which have different laws, rights, and values doesn't make any sense. In my opinion, states should be nothing more than administrative bodies used in order to separate the duties of a huge country.

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Buffalohed wrote:
Unitary systems make a lot more sense to me. Civil and human rights are universal. The idea of having individual states which have different laws, rights, and values doesn't make any sense. In my opinion, states should be nothing more than administrative bodies used in order to separate the duties of a huge country.


I'd rather have a more potent judiciary than uniform laws. In many unitary systems, the legislature is supreme and they have the power to extend and withdraw rights as they see fit. The legislature of the UK could tommorow issue a writ of attainder and imprison anyone they wanted to, with no likely recourse from the courts. The only thing stopping them is tradition - they have no real way to end the possiblity of its use unless they actually write themselves a constitution.


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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:52 pm 
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We are supposed to have certain unitary laws in the form of the Constitution and its amendments, but in practice that doesn't always work. For example, it should be unconstitutional under the 14th amendment for states to ban gay marriage, at least in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:57 pm 
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simple schoolboy wrote:
corduroy11 wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Our constitution has been the model for many others and our revolution inspired a lot of the turmoil of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, for better or worse, so there's actually a basis for that. It is blown way out of proportion though.


I understand the importance of the constitution and how it was a model for other nations... but being the first doesn't mean you're the best or only. It's the 21st century- shouldn't that notion been put to rest centuries ago?


There actually are very few Federal systems, which is probably one of the strong points of the US system. Almost all of Europe are Unitary systems, which seem to be far less oriented towards individual rights and the protection thereof. While many Europeans share many of the same ideals with Americans, the method by which they govern can have a significant effect on how those ideals are acted upon.


But my point was that people outside the US can live freely and have free expression and are free to live their life as they please. I'm sure many americans (who have never left their country) are patriotic because they are always told to believe that they are the only free nation on earth.


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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:06 pm 
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Americans know that there are lots of other "free nations," but they also know that many of those nations prohibit things like firearm ownership, certain types of vehicles (correct me if that's wrong, but I don't remember seeing any SUVs in Paris, but maybe just because they're not practical) and things like that. At the same time we're really less free in many respects, especially regarding sexual content in the media. Americans regard European society especially as significantly more "regulated," and that's where the perception springs from. I don't agree with that perception or think it's necessarily true, but that's the truth of the matter from what I've seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:52 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
Americans know that there are lots of other "free nations," but they also know that many of those nations prohibit things like firearm ownership, certain types of vehicles (correct me if that's wrong, but I don't remember seeing any SUVs in Paris, but maybe just because they're not practical) and things like that. At the same time we're really less free in many respects, especially regarding sexual content in the media. Americans regard European society especially as significantly more "regulated," and that's where the perception springs from. I don't agree with that perception or think it's necessarily true, but that's the truth of the matter from what I've seen.

You are wrong:
SUVs are not prohibited in France, or anywhere in Europe afaik, there are plenty.. they're just stupid if you live in a city! they're actually more dangerous for other road users too, particularly pedestrians (of which there's a lot more in the city)
Here we call them Chelsea tractors (Chelsea being a wealthy area of London)..they're going to get heavily taxed soon..good on Ken!
and prohibiting firearms is considered by most as a GOOD thing!

Had a chat with some americans earlier this week.. and I mentioned I cycled..and didn't have to wear a helmet, which they do (they're from California, might not be the whole US)...and your speed limits are downright ridiculous, especially considering the far lower road congestion (straight line empty roads are extremely rare in europe!)...tehn you have states not allowing, or funding abortion.
so America has it's share of regulations that we consider intrusive or excessive.

many of the regulations we have are to protect the vulnerable rather than let the individualistic law of the jungle (or the far west?) prevail.

re the federal thing, it always seemed very strange to me that in the same country you might have different laws.. how the hell do you ever know what's legal or not if when you just cross a state? it's not like you're handed a leaflet at the border point or anything. how can you make sense of it all?

and it's not true at all that the UK legislature can do whatever they want.
challenges go to both national and European courts and they can invalidate laws.
A constitution has the inconvenience of its advantages: it's very rigid...and when it was written 100s of years ago, can be completely absurd and outdated on some points.

and the american constitution was based on the constitutional system of the UK and ideas of european philosophers... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:57 am 
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One of the reasons that the american constitution is amazing is its simplicity, that by no means lack depth. It is not simply instructions, it also embodies the spirit of its ideas very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:35 pm 
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I just did a Wikipedia search and the first Dutch constitution is only 9 years younger than the American one: 1798. But it's not just the constitution that makes a democracy, in my opinion. And freedom is something you have to keep fighting for, even within a good frame. And about the fighting: that's not literally :wink:.

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:29 pm 
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Mirella wrote:
I just did a Wikipedia search and the first Dutch constitution is only 9 years younger than the American one: 1798. But it's not just the constitution that makes a democracy, in my opinion. And freedom is something you have to keep fighting for, even within a good frame. And about the fighting: that's not literally :wink:.


And even before that...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsican_Constitution ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:40 pm 
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heheh, from the looks of it, Sweden wins :lol:

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:07 am 
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corduroy11 wrote:
But my point was that people outside the US can live freely and have free expression and are free to live their life as they please. I'm sure many americans (who have never left their country) are patriotic because they are always told to believe that they are the only free nation on earth.


You'd have to look pretty hard to find Americans who think the US is the only free nation... and IMHO the fact that some states don't fund abortion or don't have gun control is proof that we probably are more free than most other nations. We are free to organize into smaller legal 'tribes', in this case states/counties/cities, and pass laws that fit the people that live there and not some uniform code of conduct from a distant federal authority. You don't like those laws, you are free to move to some other tribe.

A more apt comparison would be between the US and the European Union. How many people feel universally proud of the EU versus how many people are proud the ideas behind it and want to improve it?

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:25 am 
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broken iris wrote:
corduroy11 wrote:
But my point was that people outside the US can live freely and have free expression and are free to live their life as they please. I'm sure many americans (who have never left their country) are patriotic because they are always told to believe that they are the only free nation on earth.


You'd have to look pretty hard to find Americans who think the US is the only free nation... and IMHO the fact that some states don't fund abortion or don't have gun control is proof that we probably are more free than most other nations. We are free to organize into smaller legal 'tribes', in this case states/counties/cities, and pass laws that fit the people that live there and not some uniform code of conduct from a distant federal authority. You don't like those laws, you are free to move to some other tribe.

A more apt comparison would be between the US and the European Union. How many people feel universally proud of the EU versus how many people are proud the ideas behind it and want to improve it?


Maybe you don't notice it, but there is a lot of this kind of false patriotism on TV that is constantly fed to the public. Do you know how many times I've heard the phrase "Only in America..." with respect to Barack Obama running for president (i.e. as a black man with an immigrant father)? That's just the most recent brainwashing tactic I've seen on tv, but there are lots of others like it. I mean, come on... "only in america"?! You've got to be pretty sheltered to believe that...


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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:31 am 
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corduroy11 wrote:
broken iris wrote:
corduroy11 wrote:
But my point was that people outside the US can live freely and have free expression and are free to live their life as they please. I'm sure many americans (who have never left their country) are patriotic because they are always told to believe that they are the only free nation on earth.


You'd have to look pretty hard to find Americans who think the US is the only free nation... and IMHO the fact that some states don't fund abortion or don't have gun control is proof that we probably are more free than most other nations. We are free to organize into smaller legal 'tribes', in this case states/counties/cities, and pass laws that fit the people that live there and not some uniform code of conduct from a distant federal authority. You don't like those laws, you are free to move to some other tribe.

A more apt comparison would be between the US and the European Union. How many people feel universally proud of the EU versus how many people are proud the ideas behind it and want to improve it?


Maybe you don't notice it, but there is a lot of this kind of false patriotism on TV that is constantly fed to the public. Do you know how many times I've heard the phrase "Only in America..." with respect to Barack Obama running for president (i.e. as a black man with an immigrant father)? That's just the most recent brainwashing tactic I've seen on tv, but there are lots of others like it. I mean, come on... "only in america"?! You've got to be pretty sheltered to believe that...


I've heard the same thing about Clinton, which is way funnier.

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:07 pm 
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Quote:
Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde


Quote:
Patriotism, sir, is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:06 pm 
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JimNasium wrote:
It's pretty stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:10 pm 
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happy birthday america!

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:44 pm 
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FUCK YEAH!

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 Post subject: Re: Patriotism
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:45 am 
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Revolution was a bad idea. The legitimate government should have a monopoly on force and no restrictions on its tax powers. Who are we to disagree?


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