Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:37 am Posts: 3610 Location: London, UK Gender: Female
JimNasium wrote:
It's pretty stupid. Amirite?
yep, since no-one chooses where they're born.
_________________ 2009 was a great year for PJ gigs looking forward to 2010 and: Columbus, Noblesville, Cleveland, Buffalo, Dublin, Belfast, London, Nijmegen, Berlin, Arras, Werchter, Lisbon, some more US (wherever is the Anniversary show/a birthday show)
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:49 pm Posts: 2674 Location: the internet side of things
I hate it because it has no basis in individualist thinking. As Pegasus has said; there's no way for us to choose which country we are born in. It's like being born into a certain religion and following it dogmatically for the rest of your life.
Of course it's fine to respect or admire certain cultural aspects or historical figures of one's country, but one doesn't need to be a patriot for this, nor is wanting the best for your fellow countrymen a patriotic sentiment any more than it is humanistic. In practice, though, patriotism will often lead to a) that person turning a blind eye to the darker chapters of that nation's history, and b) a feeling of cultural superiority.
When patriotism and nationalism are too prevalent in a nation's psyche, they leave the door open for Jingoism. I think a good example of this is what's been happening in the USA for the last eight years.
edit: messed up a sentence
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:02 pm Posts: 237 Location: here Gender: Female
Timber wrote:
I hate it because it has no basis in individualist thinking. As Pegasus has said; there's no way for us to choose which country we are born in. It's like being born into a certain religion and following it dogmatically for the rest of your life.
Of course it's fine to respect or admire certain cultural aspects or historical figures of one's country, but one doesn't need to be a patriot for this, nor is wanting the best for your fellow countrymen a patriotic sentiment any more than it is humanistic. In practice, though, patriotism will often lead to a) that person turning a blind eye to the darker chapters of that nation's history, and b) a feeling of cultural superiority.
When patriotism and nationalism are too prevalent in a nation's psyche, they leave the door open for Jingoism. I think a good example of this is what's been happening in the USA for the last eight years.
edit: messed up a sentence
The US has given patriotism a bad rap.
Just because I am happy to promote my country, serve my country and am loyal to the place of my birth does not make me ignorant or have a feeling of cultural superiority. It does not mean that I will always agree with my government or the actions of all of my countryfolk. My country is unique. It is the sum total of many years struggle, hard work and unity. I was born here and my experience in this country is very much the same as many others who were also born here. I will always support and want advancement for my country and my countryfolk. I embrace this country expanding its diversity and being an inclusive, multicultural society. All the other rubbish that has come along with patriotism is what we as human beings need to reject. Not patriotism.
Main Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ə-ˌti-zəm, chiefly British ˈpa-\ Function: noun Date: circa 1726 : love for or devotion to one's country
How is this bad? Just because Americans (not that only America is guilty) have used this word and it's influence to advance agendas that don't necessarily benefit America, doesn't make Patriotism stupid.
You don't need to be devoted to, or love the country you're from. There is nothing wrong with that. If you do, however, and fight for the ideals your country stands for -- which includes protesting the actions of your own government like many here are doing everyday, that does not make you ignorant, and is not stupid.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:52 pm Posts: 10620 Location: Chicago, IL Gender: Male
Green Habit wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
I think that people are confusing patriotism with nationalism.
Just curious: how would you differentiate the two terms?
To me, on the most fundamental [simplistic] level, patriotism is a sense of love for one's country, while nationalism is a love for your own country coupleed with a hate for everyone else's -- almost like a xenophobe. Basically, not being able to get along with your neighbor.
MLK jr. didn't choose to be born black, but that does not make it wrong form him to be proud of black accomplishments. Palestinians didn't choose to born there, but I see nothing wrong with their desire to have a nation they can be proud to call their own.
I don't really see much difference between being patriotic and being a fan of a particular football club. It's not that you necessarily hate the other clubs or their fans, but you fell happy when your team wins and criticize it's leaders when it fails. One could say that America is the NY Yankees of the political world.
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:37 am Posts: 3610 Location: London, UK Gender: Female
broken iris wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
JimNasium wrote:
It's pretty stupid. Amirite?
yep, since no-one chooses where they're born.
MLK jr. didn't choose to be born black, but that does not make it wrong form him to be proud of black accomplishments. Palestinians didn't choose to born there, but I see nothing wrong with their desire to have a nation they can be proud to call their own.
I don't really see much difference between being patriotic and being a fan of a particular football club. It's not that you necessarily hate the other clubs or their fans, but you fell happy when your team wins and criticize it's leaders when it fails. One could say that America is the NY Yankees of the political world.
difference is you're not BORN in a sport team, you just pick one.
supporting a country/culture/religion/race just because that's what you were born in is stupid and ignorant. yes, you can be proud of some aspects of it... and extremely critical of most of the rest if you think it's bullshit!
to me Patriot = brain-washed canon fodder... it's the blindfold people in power have used for centuries, along with religion, to get regular people to die killing another bunch of regular people, so they themselves can get more power...
the only people you'll catch me risking my life for are people I love and care about: my family, and my friends, all of them are from other parts of the world than the one I came from!
basically, you should be an individual, with free will and an independent and critical mind!
_________________ 2009 was a great year for PJ gigs looking forward to 2010 and: Columbus, Noblesville, Cleveland, Buffalo, Dublin, Belfast, London, Nijmegen, Berlin, Arras, Werchter, Lisbon, some more US (wherever is the Anniversary show/a birthday show)
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:02 pm Posts: 237 Location: here Gender: Female
Pegasus wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
JimNasium wrote:
It's pretty stupid. Amirite?
yep, since no-one chooses where they're born.
MLK jr. didn't choose to be born black, but that does not make it wrong form him to be proud of black accomplishments. Palestinians didn't choose to born there, but I see nothing wrong with their desire to have a nation they can be proud to call their own.
I don't really see much difference between being patriotic and being a fan of a particular football club. It's not that you necessarily hate the other clubs or their fans, but you fell happy when your team wins and criticize it's leaders when it fails. One could say that America is the NY Yankees of the political world.
difference is you're not BORN in a sport team, you just pick one.
supporting a country/culture/religion/race just because that's what you were born in is stupid and ignorant. yes, you can be proud of some aspects of it... and extremely critical of most of the rest if you think it's bullshit!
to me Patriot = brain-washed canon fodder... it's the blindfold people in power have used for centuries, along with religion, to get regular people to die killing another bunch of regular people, so they themselves can get more power...
the only people you'll catch me risking my life for are people I love and care about: my family, and my friends, all of them are from other parts of the world than the one I came from!
basically, you should be an individual, with free will and an independent and critical mind!
Stupid and ignorant is assuming that other people should view things as you do without trying to understand their point of view. Labelling people is too easy. Doesn't require an indepenent and critical mind. It's the laziest kind of assessment.
Your view that a patriot is prepared to be brain washed canon fodder in all cases is offensive. That is not how all patriots are. To some being a patriot is simply an extension of their love of family, community and shared experience, a desire to see the advancement of the uniqueness of their shared experience with fellow compatriots. A desire to promote the positive aspects of their home. You don't ask to be born into family either, I might add, and have no control over who you get as family but still we manage loyalty to them. Choose loyalty to them. Being a patriot doesn't have to mean that you are willing to kill or be racist or a bully. It can mean a lot of things that I don't think some people fully appreciate anymore because of the heinous things that some people and countries have done in the name of patriotism.
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:46 pm Posts: 2275 Location: Round on the outside hi in the middle Gender: Male
potatowave wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
JimNasium wrote:
It's pretty stupid. Amirite?
yep, since no-one chooses where they're born.
MLK jr. didn't choose to be born black, but that does not make it wrong form him to be proud of black accomplishments. Palestinians didn't choose to born there, but I see nothing wrong with their desire to have a nation they can be proud to call their own.
I don't really see much difference between being patriotic and being a fan of a particular football club. It's not that you necessarily hate the other clubs or their fans, but you fell happy when your team wins and criticize it's leaders when it fails. One could say that America is the NY Yankees of the political world.
difference is you're not BORN in a sport team, you just pick one.
supporting a country/culture/religion/race just because that's what you were born in is stupid and ignorant. yes, you can be proud of some aspects of it... and extremely critical of most of the rest if you think it's bullshit!
to me Patriot = brain-washed canon fodder... it's the blindfold people in power have used for centuries, along with religion, to get regular people to die killing another bunch of regular people, so they themselves can get more power...
the only people you'll catch me risking my life for are people I love and care about: my family, and my friends, all of them are from other parts of the world than the one I came from!
basically, you should be an individual, with free will and an independent and critical mind!
Stupid and ignorant is assuming that other people should view things as you do without trying to understand their point of view. Labelling people is too easy. Doesn't require an indepenent and critical mind. It's the laziest kind of assessment.
Your view that a patriot is prepared to be brain washed canon fodder in all cases is offensive. That is not how all patriots are. To some being a patriot is simply an extension of their love of family, community and shared experience, a desire to see the advancement of the uniqueness of their shared experience with fellow compatriots. A desire to promote the positive aspects of their home. You don't ask to be born into family either, I might add, and have no control over who you get as family but still we manage loyalty to them. Choose loyalty to them. Being a patriot doesn't have to mean that you are willing to kill or be racist or a bully. It can mean a lot of things that I don't think some people fully appreciate anymore because of the heinous things that some people and countries have done in the name of patriotism.
Thank you PW. I was going to post a critical response to Pegasus, but you pretty much said what I was thinking.
Oh, Pegasus...the vast majority of professional athletes don't pick their respective teams...they get drafted. Your comparison fails...but not as bad as this thread does.
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