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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:47 pm 
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The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:51 pm 
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lefty wrote:
The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

100% correct.


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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:51 pm 
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lefty wrote:
The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

i don't catch your meaning here left. of course they can provide self defense.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:59 pm 
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likeatab wrote:
lefty wrote:
The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

i don't catch your meaning here left. of course they can provide self defense.


They are much more likely to be part of an accident or used against the owner than really providing self defense. Too many owners don't even know how to properly operate a handgun let alone actually shoot something with any accuracy. I would also argue that a shotgun would likely be more practical if a situation arose where a gun was needed.

I fear shotguns and rifles much less. They actually serve more purposes than merely inflict harm onto other human beings (I'm sure others would argue that they still do because they are made to kill animals in the least, but that's another argument). In addition, those guns cannot be concealed while a person is out in the general public, and as far as I'm concerned a person does not need a gun on them in a time like that. It's more likely to do harm than good.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:04 pm 
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lefty wrote:
likeatab wrote:
lefty wrote:
The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

i don't catch your meaning here left. of course they can provide self defense.


They are much more likely to be part of an accident or used against the owner than really providing self defense. Too many owners don't even know how to properly operate a handgun let alone actually shoot something with any accuracy. I would also argue that a shotgun would likely be more practical if a situation arose where a gun was needed.

I fear shotguns and rifles much less. They actually serve more purposes than merely inflict harm onto other human beings (I'm sure others would argue that they still do because they are made to kill animals in the least, but that's another argument). In addition, those guns cannot be concealed while a person is out in the general public, and as far as I'm concerned a person does not need a gun on them in a time like that. It's more likely to do harm than good.


While I'm a firm believer in the right to bear arms, I'm also a firm believer that a precondition for owning firearms should be to take some sort of training course, in order to learn to operate it effectively. I also believe in background checks.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:06 pm 
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lefty wrote:
likeatab wrote:
lefty wrote:
The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

i don't catch your meaning here left. of course they can provide self defense.

They are much more likely to be part of an accident or used against the owner than really providing self defense. Too many owners don't even know how to properly operate a handgun let alone actually shoot something with any accuracy. I would also argue that a shotgun would likely be more practical if a situation arose where a gun was needed.

I fear shotguns and rifles much less. They actually serve more purposes than merely inflict harm onto other human beings (I'm sure others would argue that they still do because they are made to kill animals in the least, but that's another argument). In addition, those guns cannot be concealed while a person is out in the general public, and as far as I'm concerned a person does not need a gun on them in a time like that. It's more likely to do harm than good.

100% correct again. :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:07 pm 
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dkfan9 wrote:
lefty wrote:
likeatab wrote:
lefty wrote:
The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

i don't catch your meaning here left. of course they can provide self defense.


They are much more likely to be part of an accident or used against the owner than really providing self defense. Too many owners don't even know how to properly operate a handgun let alone actually shoot something with any accuracy. I would also argue that a shotgun would likely be more practical if a situation arose where a gun was needed.

I fear shotguns and rifles much less. They actually serve more purposes than merely inflict harm onto other human beings (I'm sure others would argue that they still do because they are made to kill animals in the least, but that's another argument). In addition, those guns cannot be concealed while a person is out in the general public, and as far as I'm concerned a person does not need a gun on them in a time like that. It's more likely to do harm than good.


While I'm a firm believer in the right to bear arms, I'm also a firm believer that a precondition for owning firearms should be to take some sort of training course, in order to learn to operate it effectively. I also believe in background checks.


Yeah that definitely makes plenty of sense, but the real gun nuts act like any such regulation violates their rights. If it were up to them, everyone would have a gun on themselves at all times, and we would still have duels to settle arguments and disputes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:16 pm 
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what if i'm sitting in my house holding a criminal that just broke in at gun point while trying to call the police? how you gonna do that with anything other than a handgun? it seems doable but a lot tougher with a shotgun or rifle.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
lefty wrote:
likeatab wrote:
lefty wrote:
The decision doesn't really bother me all that much simply because of the 2nd Amendment. What scares me is some people still think that it is practical to own handguns and believe they will provide some sort of self defense.

i don't catch your meaning here left. of course they can provide self defense.

They are much more likely to be part of an accident or used against the owner than really providing self defense. Too many owners don't even know how to properly operate a handgun let alone actually shoot something with any accuracy. I would also argue that a shotgun would likely be more practical if a situation arose where a gun was needed.

I fear shotguns and rifles much less. They actually serve more purposes than merely inflict harm onto other human beings (I'm sure others would argue that they still do because they are made to kill animals in the least, but that's another argument). In addition, those guns cannot be concealed while a person is out in the general public, and as far as I'm concerned a person does not need a gun on them in a time like that. It's more likely to do harm than good.

100% correct again. :)

not sure where you're getting your statistics, but there are a number of flaws with many of the studies that are frequently used as support for that argument. one thing that's frequently not accounted for is the number of times a handgun is used for self defense without a shot being fired.

beside that, it's pretty specious to argue that my right to self defense should be abridged because there are knuckleheads who don't know how to properly operate a firearm.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:26 pm 
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walls wrote:
what if i'm sitting in my house holding a criminal that just broke in at gun point while trying to call the police? how you gonna do that with anything other than a handgun? it seems doable but a lot tougher with a shotgun or rifle.

How doable is it even with a handgun? If you're trying to concentrate and call the police (while likely in a state of suspense from the presence in the criminal in the first place), what if the criminal is able to catch you off guard and knock the gun away or even take it himself?

Therein lies the problem that lefty mentions of the risk of gun owners not being fully prepared, and for things to get drastically worse.


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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:31 pm 
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likeatab wrote:
not sure where you're getting your statistics, but there are a number of flaws with many of the studies that are frequently used as support for that argument. one thing that's frequently not accounted for is the number of times a handgun is used for self defense without a shot being fired.


Here's one quick reference for you:
viewtopic.php?p=2285275#p2285275


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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
walls wrote:
what if i'm sitting in my house holding a criminal that just broke in at gun point while trying to call the police? how you gonna do that with anything other than a handgun? it seems doable but a lot tougher with a shotgun or rifle.

How doable is it even with a handgun? If you're trying to concentrate and call the police (while likely in a state of suspense from the presence in the criminal in the first place), what if the criminal is able to catch you off guard and knock the gun away or even take it himself?

Therein lies the problem that lefty mentions of the risk of gun owners not being fully prepared, and for things to get drastically worse.


Pretty much what I'm thinking. If you are able to handle such a situation so smoothly, good job I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:35 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
walls wrote:
what if i'm sitting in my house holding a criminal that just broke in at gun point while trying to call the police? how you gonna do that with anything other than a handgun? it seems doable but a lot tougher with a shotgun or rifle.

How doable is it even with a handgun? If you're trying to concentrate and call the police (while likely in a state of suspense from the presence in the criminal in the first place), what if the criminal is able to catch you off guard and knock the gun away or even take it himself?

Therein lies the problem that lefty mentions of the risk of gun owners not being fully prepared, and for things to get drastically worse.

so assuming you had a thug/murderer/rapist enter your home and attack you, or say that happened to someone you know - what's your preferred course of action wrt defending yourself?

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
likeatab wrote:
not sure where you're getting your statistics, but there are a number of flaws with many of the studies that are frequently used as support for that argument. one thing that's frequently not accounted for is the number of times a handgun is used for self defense without a shot being fired.


Here's one quick reference for you:
viewtopic.php?p=2285275#p2285275

that doesn't seem to have much relevance at all to what we're talking about. allowing someone to bring a gun to work in my mind is much different than maintaining an individual's right to own a handgun for self-defense inside their own home.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Must all 2nd Amendment arguments eventually come to the hypothetical home-burglary scenario?

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:43 pm 
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glorified_version wrote:
Must all 2nd Amendment arguments eventually come to the hypothetical home-burglary scenario?

seems to be a pretty important part of the argument, no? it's simply a scenario that illustrates a need for self-defense. i can change the example if you like.

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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:46 pm 
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likeatab wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
walls wrote:
what if i'm sitting in my house holding a criminal that just broke in at gun point while trying to call the police? how you gonna do that with anything other than a handgun? it seems doable but a lot tougher with a shotgun or rifle.

How doable is it even with a handgun? If you're trying to concentrate and call the police (while likely in a state of suspense from the presence in the criminal in the first place), what if the criminal is able to catch you off guard and knock the gun away or even take it himself?

Therein lies the problem that lefty mentions of the risk of gun owners not being fully prepared, and for things to get drastically worse.

so assuming you had a thug/murderer/rapist enter your home and attack you, or say that happened to someone you know - what's your preferred course of action wrt defending yourself?

There's several courses of action possible--electronic security warnings, martial arts, weapons that are non-lethal or have less of a chance of mortality.

I have no philosophical problem with anyone choosing a gun as their method of self-defense, and if they're properly trained, it could definitely be the most effective form of defense over what I listed above. In practice, though, I fear that too many people won't go through with that proper training, and just see the gun as an automatic security blanket.


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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:49 pm 
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likeatab wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
likeatab wrote:
not sure where you're getting your statistics, but there are a number of flaws with many of the studies that are frequently used as support for that argument. one thing that's frequently not accounted for is the number of times a handgun is used for self defense without a shot being fired.


Here's one quick reference for you:
viewtopic.php?p=2285275#p2285275

that doesn't seem to have much relevance at all to what we're talking about. allowing someone to bring a gun to work in my mind is much different than maintaining an individual's right to own a handgun for self-defense inside their own home.

True, but I was only referring to it to use the part I bolded and italicized:
Quote:
Dozens of workplace shootings occur every year in the United States and studies have shown that job sites where guns are permitted are more likely to suffer workplace homicides than those where guns are prohibited.


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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:02 pm 
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likeatab wrote:
not sure where you're getting your statistics, but there are a number of flaws with many of the studies that are frequently used as support for that argument. one thing that's frequently not accounted for is the number of times a handgun is used for self defense without a shot being fired.

The amount of gun violence in the US is huge compared to other developed countries. I've also wondered about whether local gun control laws have had an effect on the numbers in individual localities. I've seen studies published that purport to justify both gun control and gun ownership. I was very interested when the CDC underwrote a systematic look at the previous studies. And it seems that, in general study methodologies have been flawed, and that no conclusions can be generated on the effectiveness of local gun control legislation.

During 2000--2002, the Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force), an independent nonfederal task force, conducted a systematic review of scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of firearms laws in preventing violence, including violent crimes, suicide, and unintentional injury. The following laws were evaluated: bans on specified firearms or ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition, waiting periods for firearm acquisition, firearm registration and licensing of firearm owners, "shall issue" concealed weapon carry laws, child access prevention laws, zero tolerance laws for firearms in schools, and combinations of firearms laws. The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.) This report briefly describes how the reviews were conducted, summarizes the Task Force findings, and provides information regarding needs for future research.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm


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 Post subject: Re: The Supreme Court Decision Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:40 pm 
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I read this statistic in passing so I don't have a source for it: there are 90 guns per 100 people in America. The next highest ratio in the world is 4 guns per 100 people. Don't remember which country that was.

If true, it's an interesting commentary on our nation and firearms.

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