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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:04 am 
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glorified_version wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
That's why I asked you. Holy shit batman! Pardon me to ask someone who admits they don't know a whole lot about economics in order to find how just exactly how vacant that persons knowledge on economics really is.


You were bullied as a child, weren't you?

*and even worse in the military.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:12 am 
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vacatetheword wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?

this dumbfounds me as well. the conservatives have the public well and truly convinced that they are better economic managers.


Economics does not begin and end with the deficit. I am not big, nor are many of my ilk, big on the deficit. However, I will say that economic life of this country is more important than the deficit, so long as it remains managable. At the present time it is at a managable portion of GDP. Nominally it is quite substantial, but when brought into context of percentage of GDP, it is not bad at the present time.

This is something that I would like Republicans to address. It is something that is bothersome to me about the Reagan administration, and something that has killed me about the Bush administration. However, for completely different reasons than it kills you guys.

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It's because the word conservative equates to less taxes for public programs in the general American mind, which somehow equates to better economy.


Somehow? I guess it's true what they say. Common sense is not a common virtue.

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Oh yeah. Terribly. All the time. Everyday. My life was nothing more than one long blurred series of swirlies, purple-nurples, melvins, pantsings, and spitwads inbetween being locked into my locker and getting rolled in a garbage can down the hallway.

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*and even worse in the military. - buffalohed


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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:15 am 
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vacatetheword wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?

this dumbfounds me as well. the conservatives have the public well and truly convinced that they are better economic managers.


As much as I hate budget deficits, I don't think correlation equals causation here. The Reagan and Bush eras had their share of economic good times.


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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:47 am 
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glorified_version wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
See, this is the flaw in your argument. First of all, while it is true that businesses break democratic law (though "frequently" is arguable), you seem to ignore the fact that the government does the exact same thing. The government is just as quick to hand its problems back to the public (where do you think they get their budget?), but the public doesn't have the option of voting for a different government.


Really? I thought that was kind of implied in another part of my post.

Since we're working on making huge understatements/generalizations about the role of government and business, I will say that whenever a politician - Republican or Democrat - enacts a law or program based on the desire of their constituents, it's a dirty word - "populism." But when millions flock to McDonalds to get fat while watching their corporate media talk about Paris Hilton, it's "the invisible hand of the market." For every crap law on the books that's screwing over the consumer or costing tax-payers money, there's a business that's also screwing the consumer (goods from China, anyone?), the tax-payer (This book has recently caught my attention), or the average worker because of sterile and or non-existent rule. Thank God for people like Ralph Nader. One could very EASILY attribute the decline in American intellectual culture to a citizenry that identifies with consumerism; and then what do we have? An inactive population that doesn't vote or enacts the laws that we deserve accordingly, and laws that could probably continue to preserve a productive and competitive economy as well as one that promotes the public good. The rest of the western world is way ahead of us in environmental protection, health care costs, job security; people work a little less, are generally happier, live longer, and actually vote en masse. And Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain - these are all countries that trade with us and foster very competitive working environments.


So, how about you go move to Canada, France, Germany, or Great Britain?

Seriously, though, does the word "propaganda" mean nothing to you? I think you actually believe that people hold hands and dance around a rainbow in those progressive European countries. Funny, though, because in France, with its great, worker-friendly environment, people get paid crap. My company just did a little worldwide idea/brainstorm session, and it became very obvious that the biggest issue for people in France was compensation. Nobody else really complained about the compensation, but lots and lots of French people did. But heck, why pay them more, when they have such ridiculous government-mandated vacations, hours, etc.? Sorry, but I don't see how anyone who claims to respect freedom of choice at all would dare say the government should be able to mandate the terms employers and employees can agree to.

I would suggest you read John Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break." He was, like Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, but he, unlike Nader, eventually grew a brain and started realizing that the government regulations were a bigger problem than the problems they were designed to prevent.

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I'd be wiling to go toe-to-toe here but I'm sick of talking about the subject (as I am with "black America"), and I believe you're wrong. I think we've seen a slow and BITTER downward spiral in preserving our middle-class tradition since Reagan (who surrounded himself with PR buffoons), and one of the reasons our government spends money so poorly is because business now dominates our public. Aside from that I've always been more than willing to make concessions on behalf of your argument. I eat at McDonald's sometimes too.


LOL, business dominates our public. That's rich. Wow, businesses have gained so much power since the Carnegies, Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, etc.

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Secondly, the key phrase in your second statement, "when updated and revised with the times," is a pipe dream at best. Regulations are never "updated", they are only added upon. You're living in a fantasy world if you think the government ever gets rid of old regulations. The only way that happens is through an expensive trip to the supreme court, and loads of money that could be used to increase productivity (and therefore standard of living) is instead used on satisfying regulations. Ever heard of Sarbanes-Oxley? How many countless billions are wasted paying accountants to make sure businesses adhere to its leviathan statutes? And only as a knee-jerk reaction to what the public perceived as someone being dishonest (which was not, by the way, actually proven).


I haven't heard of "Sarbanes-Oxley," but you also shrugged off Enron and suggested corporations become our overlords. I think I'll read about it in my free time though, thanks.


I didn't "shrug off" Enron, I simply called it was it is: an unfortunate fringe case (it should be noted, though, that Ken Lay and troupe were not proven to have incorrectly valued their assets on purpose, and the trial was nothing more than a media-driven witch hunt, but I digress). I think people seriously need to consider whether the effects of Enron or the effects of SOX are worse. And there's not even any evidence that SOX will prevent future stock disasters.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:49 am 
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Green Habit wrote:
vacatetheword wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?

this dumbfounds me as well. the conservatives have the public well and truly convinced that they are better economic managers.


As much as I hate budget deficits, I don't think correlation equals causation here. The Reagan and Bush eras had their share of economic good times.


Not just that, but at least McCain is pretending that he's going to be fiscally responsible. Obama and Clinton haven't so much as attempted to put up a facade.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:32 am 
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$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
So, how about you go move to Canada, France, Germany, or Great Britain?


So you've resorted to "love it or leave it." That's intelligent.

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Seriously, though, does the word "propaganda" mean nothing to you? I think you actually believe that people hold hands and dance around a rainbow in those progressive European countries.


Propaganda? Who's propagating here? One Michael Moore film? You're taking me for a fool. This is rubbish. You've gone off the deep end.

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My company just did a little worldwide idea/brainstorm session, and it became very obvious that the biggest issue for people in France was compensation. Nobody else really complained about the compensation, but lots and lots of French people did. But heck, why pay them more, when they have such ridiculous government-mandated vacations, hours, etc.? Sorry, but I don't see how anyone who claims to respect freedom of choice at all would dare say the government should be able to mandate the terms employers and employees can agree to.


And what does this mean. Jackshit, with the exception of increasing your xenophobia.

Quote:
I would suggest you read John Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break." He was, like Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, but he, unlike Nader, eventually grew a brain and started realizing that the government regulations were a bigger problem than the problems they were designed to prevent.


Thanks, but no. I'd rather watch Penn and Teller.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:20 am 
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glorified_version wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
So, how about you go move to Canada, France, Germany, or Great Britain?


So you've resorted to "love it or leave it." That's intelligent.

Quote:
Seriously, though, does the word "propaganda" mean nothing to you? I think you actually believe that people hold hands and dance around a rainbow in those progressive European countries.


Propaganda? Who's propagating here? One Michael Moore film? You're taking me for a fool. This is rubbish. You've gone off the deep end.

Quote:
My company just did a little worldwide idea/brainstorm session, and it became very obvious that the biggest issue for people in France was compensation. Nobody else really complained about the compensation, but lots and lots of French people did. But heck, why pay them more, when they have such ridiculous government-mandated vacations, hours, etc.? Sorry, but I don't see how anyone who claims to respect freedom of choice at all would dare say the government should be able to mandate the terms employers and employees can agree to.


And what does this mean. Jackshit, with the exception of increasing your xenophobia.

Quote:
I would suggest you read John Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break." He was, like Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, but he, unlike Nader, eventually grew a brain and started realizing that the government regulations were a bigger problem than the problems they were designed to prevent.


Thanks, but no. I'd rather watch Penn and Teller.


OK, we got the snarky response. Do you have a worthwhile one ready, or do you need more time?

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:30 am 
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$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
glorified_version wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
So, how about you go move to Canada, France, Germany, or Great Britain?


So you've resorted to "love it or leave it." That's intelligent.

Quote:
Seriously, though, does the word "propaganda" mean nothing to you? I think you actually believe that people hold hands and dance around a rainbow in those progressive European countries.


Propaganda? Who's propagating here? One Michael Moore film? You're taking me for a fool. This is rubbish. You've gone off the deep end.

Quote:
My company just did a little worldwide idea/brainstorm session, and it became very obvious that the biggest issue for people in France was compensation. Nobody else really complained about the compensation, but lots and lots of French people did. But heck, why pay them more, when they have such ridiculous government-mandated vacations, hours, etc.? Sorry, but I don't see how anyone who claims to respect freedom of choice at all would dare say the government should be able to mandate the terms employers and employees can agree to.


And what does this mean. Jackshit, with the exception of increasing your xenophobia.

Quote:
I would suggest you read John Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break." He was, like Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, but he, unlike Nader, eventually grew a brain and started realizing that the government regulations were a bigger problem than the problems they were designed to prevent.


Thanks, but no. I'd rather watch Penn and Teller.


OK, we got the snarky response. Do you have a worthwhile one ready, or do you need more time?


Sometimes GV's posts are the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling LLALALALALALALALALALA.

Luckily, they are sometimes quite profound, albeit a little kooky.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:32 am 
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glorified_version wrote:
Quote:
I would suggest you read John Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break." He was, like Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, but he, unlike Nader, eventually grew a brain and started realizing that the government regulations were a bigger problem than the problems they were designed to prevent.


Thanks, but no. I'd rather watch Penn and Teller.


I think you'd find that Stossel and P&T agree on a whole bunch of things.


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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:50 am 
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thodoks wrote:
glorified_version wrote:
Except kthodos, who's still just an academic worm.


i don't know whether this is an insult or a compliment...

ben bernanke is my biggest concern about this economy. there are many, many things wrong with current economic policy. fortunately, our economy is robust enough to be able to withstand the thousands of paper cuts that DC seems willing to administer. monetary policy is not such an arena. bernanke is mistakenly convinced that we can inflate our way out of this mess. such policies only delay the inevitable market correction. in so doing, he's making sure that future corrections are that much more extreme and protracted.

part of the reason our economy is so robust is because the downsides of monopolies and market power are at least partially ameliorated by competition (or the threat thereof). the government's legal monopoly on currency has no such buffer. printing money out of thin air has consequences.



for a navy bean - this guy has it nailed. i work on wall street. i know a thing or two about this topic. i just don't like to type about things besides girls i'm dating.

we are headed for massive stagflation and it is the fed's fault. if you don't know what stagflation is - go to wikipedia. hint: it's very bad.

and a war that costs hundreds of billions a year coupled with some really stupid tax cuts (not referring to cap gains, i actually agree with that) is also responsible for our inevitable stagflation.

rome is burning folks. was fun while it lasted. and i'm not the boy who cried wolf. has anyone looked at what the dollar has done the past few years? if you want to travel - plan on staying at a friends house and eating burger king.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:56 am 
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Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?


that's the most amazing thing. bush jr. has been the most fiscally irresponsible president since...?

not only does he spend spend spend (war) but he cuts cuts cuts taxes.

he is borrowing money that has to be paid back. most of this country thinks we have some endless supply of money. well, when inflation hits high single digits (which it already is if you look at the REAL number not the core number) and when our dollar continues to plummet...we will all see the effects of the spend spend spend cut taxes policy that worked for a short time but will have unbelievably dire long term consequences.

same thing as the record low interest rates that helicopter ben is doing now just like alan did to create the housing bubble.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:33 am 
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Gimme Some Skin wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
glorified_version wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
So, how about you go move to Canada, France, Germany, or Great Britain?


So you've resorted to "love it or leave it." That's intelligent.

Quote:
Seriously, though, does the word "propaganda" mean nothing to you? I think you actually believe that people hold hands and dance around a rainbow in those progressive European countries.


Propaganda? Who's propagating here? One Michael Moore film? You're taking me for a fool. This is rubbish. You've gone off the deep end.

Quote:
My company just did a little worldwide idea/brainstorm session, and it became very obvious that the biggest issue for people in France was compensation. Nobody else really complained about the compensation, but lots and lots of French people did. But heck, why pay them more, when they have such ridiculous government-mandated vacations, hours, etc.? Sorry, but I don't see how anyone who claims to respect freedom of choice at all would dare say the government should be able to mandate the terms employers and employees can agree to.


And what does this mean. Jackshit, with the exception of increasing your xenophobia.

Quote:
I would suggest you read John Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break." He was, like Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, but he, unlike Nader, eventually grew a brain and started realizing that the government regulations were a bigger problem than the problems they were designed to prevent.


Thanks, but no. I'd rather watch Penn and Teller.


OK, we got the snarky response. Do you have a worthwhile one ready, or do you need more time?


Sometimes GV's posts are the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling LLALALALALALALALALALA.

Luckily, they are sometimes quite profound, albeit a little kooky.


Aside from stirring up this hornet's nest, I've been as reasonable as possible. Please forgive my pragmatism.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:57 am 
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$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
vacatetheword wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?

this dumbfounds me as well. the conservatives have the public well and truly convinced that they are better economic managers.


As much as I hate budget deficits, I don't think correlation equals causation here. The Reagan and Bush eras had their share of economic good times.


Not just that, but at least McCain is pretending that he's going to be fiscally responsible. Obama and Clinton haven't so much as attempted to put up a facade.

Not really, he's been pretty upfront about the fact that he's going to continue to waste hundreds of billions of dollars on the occupation of Iraq, even trillions if it comes to that.

Considering that fact that he's a war-monger who things the solution to every problem is a hugely expensive war or military campaign, you can safely pencil in hundreds of billions more that would go towards occupying whatever country (or countries) he invades if he's President.

I honestly can't imagine a more fiscally irresponsible president.



You really value being lied to over honesty?

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:03 am 
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Ozymandias wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
vacatetheword wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?

this dumbfounds me as well. the conservatives have the public well and truly convinced that they are better economic managers.


As much as I hate budget deficits, I don't think correlation equals causation here. The Reagan and Bush eras had their share of economic good times.


Not just that, but at least McCain is pretending that he's going to be fiscally responsible. Obama and Clinton haven't so much as attempted to put up a facade.

Not really, he's been pretty upfront about the fact that he's going to continue to waste hundreds of billions of dollars on the occupation of Iraq, even trillions if it comes to that.

Considering that fact that he's a war-monger who things the solution to every problem is a hugely expensive war or military campaign, you can safely pencil in hundreds of billions more that would go towards occupying whatever country (or countries) he invades if he's President.

I honestly can't imagine a more fiscally irresponsible president.



You really value being lied to over honesty?


He's been honest about the war. I agree that spending all that money on wars is totally stupid, but the massive entitlement programs certain democrats are throwing around cost alot too, and they're permanent.

And no, I don't value being lied to over honesty. I value fiscal responsibility over massive government bureaucracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:06 am 
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$úñ_DëV|L wrote:

He's been honest about the war. I agree that spending all that money on wars is totally stupid, but the massive entitlement programs certain democrats are throwing around cost alot too, and they're permanent.

And no, I don't value being lied to over honesty. I value fiscal responsibility over massive government bureaucracy.


Absolutely nothing is 'permanent'. Anything can be overturned with the right number of votes.

And a 100 year war sure sounds more 'permanent' to me than any fiscal proposal involving taxes or social programs.

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Last edited by given2trade on Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:09 am 
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given2trade wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:

He's been honest about the war. I agree that spending all that money on wars is totally stupid, but the massive entitlement programs certain democrats are throwing around cost alot too, and they're permanent.

And no, I don't value being lied to over honesty. I value fiscal responsibility over massive government bureaucracy.


Absolutely nothing is 'permanent'. Anything can be overturned with the right number of votes.

And a 100 year war sure sounds more 'permanent' to me than any fiscal proposal involving taxes or social programs.


Who said it's a 100 year war? At any rate, any war is easier to get off the budget than a social program that millions of people grow to rely upon.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:22 pm 
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$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
given2trade wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:

He's been honest about the war. I agree that spending all that money on wars is totally stupid, but the massive entitlement programs certain democrats are throwing around cost alot too, and they're permanent.

And no, I don't value being lied to over honesty. I value fiscal responsibility over massive government bureaucracy.


Absolutely nothing is 'permanent'. Anything can be overturned with the right number of votes.

And a 100 year war sure sounds more 'permanent' to me than any fiscal proposal involving taxes or social programs.


Who said it's a 100 year war? At any rate, any war is easier to get off the budget than a social program that millions of people grow to rely upon.


During a town hall meeting in Derry, New Hampshire last night, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) told a crowd of roughly two hundred people that it “would be fine with” him if the U.S. military stayed in Iraq for “a hundred years“:

Q: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years — (cut off by McCain)

McCAIN: Make it a hundred.

Q: Is that … (cut off)

McCAIN: We’ve been in South Korea … we’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea 50 years or so. That would be fine with me. As long as Americans …

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/04/mccain-100-years/

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:32 pm 
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To be fair to McCain, I think this statement got misconstrued from "100-year military presence" to "100-year active warfare". And to be honest, I would not mind a long-term presence in Northern Iraq to deter any conflict from Turkey, Iran, or whoever controls Iraq between the Kurdish populace.

But now we're getting way off topic...


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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:41 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
To be fair to McCain, I think this statement got misconstrued from "100-year military presence" to "100-year active warfare". And to be honest, I would not mind a long-term presence in Northern Iraq to deter any conflict from Turkey, Iran, or whoever controls Iraq between the Kurdish populace.

But now we're getting way off topic...


I was just making a point. Clearly we will not have 150,000+ troops in Iraq in 10 years let alone 100. I agree we will always have a presence there though.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Those of you who are into the economy, how do you reconcile the need to keep the market strong through low taxation and regulation and the necessity of an industrialized nation like the US to provide basic services to its citizens? Is there no such thing as smart government spending that could provide something like universal healthcare without killing the economy?

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Now that god no longer exists, the desire for another world still remains.

Always do the right thing.


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