Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:11 am
Unthought Known
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Medford, Oregon Gender: Male
Fuck Keynesian economics and all that jazz. Joe Six-Pack wants to know, what are you gonna do so that it doesn't cost me $300/month to heat my home next winter?
_________________ Deep below the dunes I roved Past the rows, past the rows Beside the acacias freshly in bloom I sent men to their doom
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:45 am
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
meatwad wrote:
Fuck Keynesian economics and all that jazz. Joe Six-Pack wants to know, what are you gonna do so that it doesn't cost me $300/month to heat my home next winter?
It cost me 300 fucking dollars/month to heat my home last winter and I live in fucking Texas.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 20537 Location: The City Of Trees
meatwad wrote:
Fuck Keynesian economics and all that jazz. Joe Six-Pack wants to know, what are you gonna do so that it doesn't cost me $300/month to heat my home next winter?
I'd tell Joe Six-Pack that the current economic state cannot be completely solved by gov't intervention, and that a recession is just part of a cycle. Of course, I wouldn't get Joe Six-Pack's vote, hence why I'm not a politician.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:03 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
glorified_version wrote:
Businesses employ people and invent useful things, but they frequently break democratic law and will not hesitate to hand any problem they can't deal with back to the public on a whim, usually through deceitful means. Most regulation when updated and revised with the times is perfectly sensible, and if we were living in a moral universe it wouldn't be necessary. Alas, we're not.
See, this is the flaw in your argument. First of all, while it is true that businesses break democratic law (though "frequently" is arguable), you seem to ignore the fact that the government does the exact same thing. The government is just as quick to hand its problems back to the public (where do you think they get their budget?), but the public doesn't have the option of voting for a different government.
Secondly, the key phrase in your second statement, "when updated and revised with the times," is a pipe dream at best. Regulations are never "updated", they are only added upon. You're living in a fantasy world if you think the government ever gets rid of old regulations. The only way that happens is through an expensive trip to the supreme court, and loads of money that could be used to increase productivity (and therefore standard of living) is instead used on satisfying regulations. Ever heard of Sarbanes-Oxley? How many countless billions are wasted paying accountants to make sure businesses adhere to its leviathan statutes? And only as a knee-jerk reaction to what the public perceived as someone being dishonest (which was not, by the way, actually proven).
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:44 pm
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
Quote:
I've repeatedly stated that I'm:
a)not against competition b)not against incentive c)not against amassing wealth d)not necessarily for various policies involving "wealth re-distribution."
Businesses employ people and invent useful things, but they frequently break democratic law and will not hesitate to hand any problem they can't deal with back to the public on a whim, usually through deceitful means. Most regulation when updated and revised with the times is perfectly sensible, and if we were living in a moral universe it wouldn't be necessary. Alas, we're not. - GV
This message has been brought to you by a Barack Obama supporter.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:03 pm
Yeah Yeah Yeah
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:15 pm Posts: 3875
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
Secondly, the key phrase in your second statement, "when updated and revised with the times," is a pipe dream at best. Regulations are never "updated", they are only added upon. You're living in a fantasy world if you think the government ever gets rid of old regulations. The only way that happens is through an expensive trip to the supreme court, and loads of money that could be used to increase productivity (and therefore standard of living) is instead used on satisfying regulations. Ever heard of Sarbanes-Oxley? How many countless billions are wasted paying accountants to make sure businesses adhere to its leviathan statutes? And only as a knee-jerk reaction to what the public perceived as someone being dishonest (which was not, by the way, actually proven).
Sarbanes Oxley is a great example. I love Sarbanes-Oxley because I get to make money from this ridiculous law. It is so overboard and a managerial nightmare for companies to manage or audit. Government had no place in doing this. Once a level of fiscal responsibility was identified pretty much every publically traded company had a fidiciary duty to it's stockholders to address the issues Enron faced.
But as a business owner I'd sure want Sarbines-Oxley like responsbility mtrices and division of duties and tracking of activity. Same when I'm an investor. Why would I invest in a company that knowingly does nothing to address identified risks? Did we need government intervention that is hamfisted to do what we all should have been doing as individuals? One of the biggest problems with SOx is that the publically traded business can hardly do any business with a business that is not SOx compliant. That hurts every small business in America. Either through loss business or driving their expenses needlessly higher.
On a day to day basis I am much more affected by shitty parenting. Yet we don't ask that the government make draconian rules for parents to adhere to but we do hope that current laws are applied. Why wasn't that good enough in the Enron fiasco? Why did the public feel the need to go crazy and applaud government getting bigger?
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:41 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:01 am Posts: 19477 Location: Brooklyn NY
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
See, this is the flaw in your argument. First of all, while it is true that businesses break democratic law (though "frequently" is arguable), you seem to ignore the fact that the government does the exact same thing. The government is just as quick to hand its problems back to the public (where do you think they get their budget?), but the public doesn't have the option of voting for a different government.
Really? I thought that was kind of implied in another part of my post.
Since we're working on making huge understatements/generalizations about the role of government and business, I will say that whenever a politician - Republican or Democrat - enacts a law or program based on the desire of their constituents, it's a dirty word - "populism." But when millions flock to McDonalds to get fat while watching their corporate media talk about Paris Hilton, it's "the invisible hand of the market." For every crap law on the books that's screwing over the consumer or costing tax-payers money, there's a business that's also screwing the consumer (goods from China, anyone?), the tax-payer (This book has recently caught my attention), or the average worker because of sterile and or non-existent rule. Thank God for people like Ralph Nader. One could very EASILY attribute the decline in American intellectual culture to a citizenry that identifies with consumerism; and then what do we have? An inactive population that doesn't vote or enacts the laws that we deserve accordingly, and laws that could probably continue to preserve a productive and competitive economy as well as one that promotes the public good. The rest of the western world is way ahead of us in environmental protection, health care costs, job security; people work a little less, are generally happier, live longer, and actually vote en masse. And Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain - these are all countries that trade with us and foster very competitive working environments.
I'd be wiling to go toe-to-toe here but I'm sick of talking about the subject (as I am with "black America"), and I believe you're wrong. I think we've seen a slow and BITTER downward spiral in preserving our middle-class tradition since Reagan (who surrounded himself with PR buffoons), and one of the reasons our government spends money so poorly is because business now dominates our public. Aside from that I've always been more than willing to make concessions on behalf of your argument. I eat at McDonald's sometimes too.
Quote:
Secondly, the key phrase in your second statement, "when updated and revised with the times," is a pipe dream at best. Regulations are never "updated", they are only added upon. You're living in a fantasy world if you think the government ever gets rid of old regulations. The only way that happens is through an expensive trip to the supreme court, and loads of money that could be used to increase productivity (and therefore standard of living) is instead used on satisfying regulations. Ever heard of Sarbanes-Oxley? How many countless billions are wasted paying accountants to make sure businesses adhere to its leviathan statutes? And only as a knee-jerk reaction to what the public perceived as someone being dishonest (which was not, by the way, actually proven).
I haven't heard of "Sarbanes-Oxley," but you also shrugged off Enron and suggested corporations become our overlords. I think I'll read about it in my free time though, thanks.
_________________
LittleWing sometime in July 2007 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's so elementary, and the big time investors behind the drive in the stock market aren't so stupid. This isn't the false economy of 2000.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:08 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:01 am Posts: 19477 Location: Brooklyn NY
LittleWing wrote:
Just out of curiousity GV. How many corporations do you think are in America? And how many of them do you actually think are evil?
These questions are horrible.
_________________
LittleWing sometime in July 2007 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's so elementary, and the big time investors behind the drive in the stock market aren't so stupid. This isn't the false economy of 2000.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:10 pm
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
glorified_version wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Just out of curiousity GV. How many corporations do you think are in America? And how many of them do you actually think are evil?
These questions are horrible.
Why? You seem to think that every corporation in America = Enron. It's nice that you at least admit you don't have a clue about economics. If only we could get such an admission from your messiah.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:12 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:01 am Posts: 19477 Location: Brooklyn NY
LittleWing wrote:
glorified_version wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Just out of curiousity GV. How many corporations do you think are in America? And how many of them do you actually think are evil?
These questions are horrible.
Why? You seem to think that every corporation in America = Enron. It's nice that you at least admit you don't have a clue about economics. If only we could get such an admission from your messiah.
No, you seem to think that I think that every corporation in America = Enron. Nice one. Build your strawman, it works well for you.
I've spoken my peace. I'm done here.
_________________
LittleWing sometime in July 2007 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's so elementary, and the big time investors behind the drive in the stock market aren't so stupid. This isn't the false economy of 2000.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:29 pm
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
glorified_version wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
glorified_version wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Just out of curiousity GV. How many corporations do you think are in America? And how many of them do you actually think are evil?
These questions are horrible.
Why? You seem to think that every corporation in America = Enron. It's nice that you at least admit you don't have a clue about economics. If only we could get such an admission from your messiah.
No, you seem to think that I think that every corporation in America = Enron. Nice one. Build your strawman, it works well for you.
I've spoken my peace. I'm done here.
That's why I asked you. Holy shit batman! Pardon me to ask someone who admits they don't know a whole lot about economics in order to find how just exactly how vacant that persons knowledge on economics really is.
You seem to think that every corporation is schisty. And if you don't, I really don't see how you can justify some of the bullshit you justify.
Quote:
For every crap law on the books that's screwing over the consumer or costing tax-payers money, there's a business that's also screwing the consumer (goods from China, anyone?)
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:41 pm
Got Some
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:06 am Posts: 2402 Location: Freedonia
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?
_________________ "Do you realize that even as we sit here, we are hurtling through space at a tremendous rate of speed? Think about it. Our world is just a hanging curveball." -Bill Lee
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:46 pm
Spaceman
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:03 am Posts: 24177 Location: Australia
Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?
this dumbfounds me as well. the conservatives have the public well and truly convinced that they are better economic managers.
_________________ Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear, Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer. The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:54 pm
Reissued
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:41 pm Posts: 23014 Location: NOT FLO-RIDIN Gender: Male
vacatetheword wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
I can't believe people who say they care about the economy are seriously advocating voting for McCain. The last 3 Republican presidents have given us the 3 worst deficits in the history of the galaxy. And people seriously want to try this a 4th time?
this dumbfounds me as well. the conservatives have the public well and truly convinced that they are better economic managers.
It's because the word conservative equates to less taxes for public programs in the general American mind, which somehow equates to better economy.
_________________
given2trade wrote:
Oh, you think I'm being douchey? Well I shall have to re-examine everything then. Thanks brah.
Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:03 am
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:01 am Posts: 19477 Location: Brooklyn NY
LittleWing wrote:
That's why I asked you. Holy shit batman! Pardon me to ask someone who admits they don't know a whole lot about economics in order to find how just exactly how vacant that persons knowledge on economics really is.
You were bullied as a child, weren't you?
_________________
LittleWing sometime in July 2007 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's so elementary, and the big time investors behind the drive in the stock market aren't so stupid. This isn't the false economy of 2000.
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