Libertarians are committed to the belief that individuals, and not states or groups of any other kind, are both ontologically and normatively primary; that individuals have rights against certain kinds of forcible interference on the part of others; that liberty, understood as non-interference, is the only thing that can be legitimately demanded of others as a matter of legal or political right; that robust property rights and the economic liberty that follows from their consistent recognition are of central importance in respecting individual liberty; that social order is not at odds with but develops out of individual liberty; that the only proper use of coercion is defensive or to rectify an error; that governments are bound by essentially the same moral principles as individuals; and that most existing and historical governments have acted improperly insofar as they have utilized coercion for plunder, aggression, redistribution, and other purposes beyond the protection of individual liberty.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
Seeing as how something like a third of the posters here claim libertarianism, I expect there to be some pretty strong support here. Don't let me down. Why are you a libertarian? Why should someone choose this ideology over modern liberalism, conservatism, or socialism?
Also, I wonder how many of you understand the full implications of libertarianism. There are pretty radical implications. The vast majority of our government is unnecessary by libertarian standards.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
My libertarianism springs from the non-agression principle.
Social groups are always abstractions based in generalizations (even if asserted in reality), individuals are concrete.
So I questioned myself:
Who owns the individual if not the individual him/herself? Respecting the individual is respecting everybody.
So how an individual or a group would have the right to enforce things to another individual that is not causing any harm to other people?
Why the person suffering an agression has to accept the agression? Greater good? But if nobody have their rights assured, how can be everybody be better?
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:38 pm Posts: 20059 Gender: Male
Human Bass wrote:
My libertarianism springs from the non-agression principle.
Social groups are always abstractions based in generalizations (even if asserted in reality), individuals are concrete.
So I questioned myself:
Who owns the individual if not the individual him/herself? Respecting the individual is respecting everybody.
So how an individual or a group would have the right to enforce things to another individual that is not causing any harm to other people?
Why the person suffering an agression has to accept the agression? Greater good? But if nobody have their rights assured, how can be everybody be better?
these are some of my philosophical issues with government. but, society itself is an oppressor, too. so it's a back and forth, for me. oppression comes from everywhere. what is the preferable type to accept? and what type of oppression is more based in negative rights, and what type is more based in positive rights. is oppression by virtue of someone not doing something you wish them to do punishable by government? i find it tough to argue that it should be. and then we have to deal with the issue of broader human rights and decency, like a standard of living for the poorest, and especially, children. these moral dillemas stop me from going full blown libertarian. it's very much a back and forth for me. and when the overall greater efficiency of markets compared to governments comes into play, another shot against govt., but for much different reasons.
_________________ stop light plays its part, so I would say you've got a part
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
dkfan9 wrote:
Human Bass wrote:
My libertarianism springs from the non-agression principle.
Social groups are always abstractions based in generalizations (even if asserted in reality), individuals are concrete.
So I questioned myself:
Who owns the individual if not the individual him/herself? Respecting the individual is respecting everybody.
So how an individual or a group would have the right to enforce things to another individual that is not causing any harm to other people?
Why the person suffering an agression has to accept the agression? Greater good? But if nobody have their rights assured, how can be everybody be better?
these are some of my philosophical issues with government. but, society itself is an oppressor, too. so it's a back and forth, for me. oppression comes from everywhere. what is the preferable type to accept? and what type of oppression is more based in negative rights, and what type is more based in positive rights. is oppression by virtue of someone not doing something you wish them to do punishable by government? i find it tough to argue that it should be. and then we have to deal with the issue of broader human rights and decency, like a standard of living for the poorest, and especially, children. these moral dillemas stop me from going full blown libertarian. it's very much a back and forth for me. and when the overall greater efficiency of markets compared to governments comes into play, another shot against govt., but for much different reasons.
Standard of living improves by hard work, not government decreet. In a libertarian society, where the person is free to chose only what he considers good and worthy, everybody is stimulated to give their best. See places almost-libertarian like Lichenstein and Hong Kong, whoever is willing to work hard in those places, will be able to earn a decent living, even if they are not genius or super skilled at something.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
Buff, libertarianism has aspects from both modern liberalism and conservativism. Libertarians just avoid the cognitive dissonance that both have with freedom (one claims the social freedom is good, economical freedom is not and the other is just a vice-versa ).
And why chosing libertarianism over socialism? Why not chose almost everything else instead of something that only works by totalitarian means and caused massive misery and cultural stagnation?
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:35 pm Posts: 1633 Location: Wales Gender: Male
The way I see it...a completely libertarian state would re-introduce many of the natural selection effects that our society currently tries to work against. It is probably the natural way of living, but hierarchies will quickly establish just as we have now. It may be the 'correct' and most 'free' way of living, but I can't see it being a very enjoyable state to live in for a huge proportion of people.
Obviously I'm looking at the extreme here.
_________________ Speaking as a child of the 90s...
I'd say that this nation was founded largely upon Libertarian/limited government principles.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
Anfarwoldeb wrote:
The way I see it...a completely libertarian state would re-introduce many of the natural selection effects that our society currently tries to work against. It is probably the natural way of living, but hierarchies will quickly establish just as we have now. It may be the 'correct' and most 'free' way of living, but I can't see it being a very enjoyable state to live in for a huge proportion of people.
Obviously I'm looking at the extreme here.
A libertarian society can turn out in many different ways. It can be a super capitalist place, or an amish community.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:35 pm Posts: 1633 Location: Wales Gender: Male
Human Bass wrote:
Anfarwoldeb wrote:
The way I see it...a completely libertarian state would re-introduce many of the natural selection effects that our society currently tries to work against. It is probably the natural way of living, but hierarchies will quickly establish just as we have now. It may be the 'correct' and most 'free' way of living, but I can't see it being a very enjoyable state to live in for a huge proportion of people.
Obviously I'm looking at the extreme here.
A libertarian society can turn out in many different ways. It can be a super capitalist place, or an amish community.
I wish I had the faith in my fellow man.
_________________ Speaking as a child of the 90s...
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
dkfan9 wrote:
a "government" would probably pop up.
Anarchy doesnt equate chaos, that is a common misconception. Here is a real example of what can be considered a libertarian micro-society, a fascinating read.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Anarchy doesnt equate chaos, that is a common misconception. Here is a real example of what can be considered a libertarian micro-society, a fascinating read.
Unfortunately, it's so elementary, and the big time investors behind the drive in the stock market aren't so stupid. This isn't the false economy of 2000.
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