Board index » Word on the Street... » News & Debate




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:42 am 
Offline
User avatar
Red Mosquito, my libido
 Profile

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:02 am
Posts: 91597
Location: Sector 7-G
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090706/ap_ ... t_mcnamara

Quote:
WASHINGTON – Robert S. McNamara, the brainy Pentagon chief who directed the escalation of the Vietnam War despite private doubts the war was winnable or worth fighting, died Monday at 93.

McNamara revealed his misgivings three decades after the American defeat that some called "McNamara's war."

"We of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations acted according to what we thought were the principles and traditions of our country. But we were wrong. We were terribly wrong," McNamara told The Associated Press in 1995, the year his best-selling memoir appeared.

McNamara died at 5:30 a.m. at his home, his wife Diana told the AP. She said he had been in failing health for some time.

Closely identified with the war's early years, McNamara was a forceful public optimist. He predicted that American intervention would enable the South Vietnamese, despite internal feuds, to stand by themselves "by the end of 1965." The war ground on until 1975, with more than 58,000 U.S. deaths.

Lawyerly and a student of statistical analysis, McNamara was recruited to run the Pentagon by President John F. Kennedy in 1961 from the presidency of the Ford Motor Co. — where he and a group of colleagues had been known as the "whiz kids."

He stayed in the defense post for seven years, longer than anyone else since the job's creation in 1947. He left on the verge of a nervous breakdown and became president of the World Bank. In the new post, he threw himself into the intricacies of international development and argued that improving lives was a more promising path to peace than building up arms and armies.

McNamara was a distinctive figure, with frameless glasses and slicked-back hair. Anti-war critics ridiculed him as an out-of-touch technocrat and made much of the fact that his middle name was "Strange." Simon and Garfunkel worked his name into a ditty about an overbearing government, and he once had to flee an appearance at Harvard through underground utility tunnels.

By the end of his Pentagon tenure, McNamara had come to doubt the value of widespread U.S. bombing, and he was fighting with his generals. President Lyndon Johnson lost faith or patience in him; McNamara would later write that he didn't know if he quit or was fired.

In the Kennedy administration, McNamara was a key figure in both the disastrous Bay of Pigs invasion of April 1961 and the Cuban missile crisis 18 months later. The missile episode was the closest the world came to a nuclear confrontation between the Soviet Union and the United States, and historians have pointed to McNamara's role in steering internal debate away from a U.S. airstrike.

Reticent, McNamara long resisted offers to give a detailed accounting of his role in Vietnam. His son, who had protested the war his father helped to run, once said it was not within McNamara's "scope" to be reflective about the war.

McNamara's eventual mea culpa won him admiration from some former opponents of the war. Others said it was not enough, and three decades too late.

"Where was he when we needed him?" a Boston Globe editorial asked.

Ted Sorensen, a speechwriter and adviser who worked with McNamara in both the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, said the criticism missed the mark.

"Most military chieftains — presidents or Cabinet members or otherwise — don't admit error, ever," Sorensen said. "At least Bob had the courage and commitment to truth to put out that he was wrong and why it was wrong so that we could all learn the lessons from that."

"In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam" appeared in 1995. McNamara disclosed that by 1967 he had deep misgivings about Vietnam — by then he had lost faith in America's capacity to prevail over guerrillas who had driven the French from the same jungle countryside.

Despite those doubts, he had continued to express public confidence that the application of enough American firepower would cause the Communists to make peace. In that period, the number of U.S. casualties — dead, missing and wounded — went from 7,466 to over 100,000.

McNamara wrote later that he and others had not asked five basic questions: "Was it true that the fall of South Vietnam would trigger the fall of all Southeast Asia? Would that constitute a grave threat to the West's security? What kind of war — conventional or guerrilla — might develop? Could the U.S. win with its troops fighting alongside the South Vietnamese? Should the U.S. not know the answers to all these questions before deciding whether to commit troops?

He discussed similar themes in the 2003 documentary "The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara." With the U.S. in the first year of the war in Iraq, it became a popular and timely art-house attraction and won the Oscar for best documentary feature.

McNamara served as the World Bank president for 12 years. He tripled its loans to developing countries and changed its emphasis from grandiose industrial projects to rural development before retiring in 1981.

He was born June 9, 1916, in San Francisco, son of the sales manager for a wholesale shoe company. At the University of California at Berkeley, he majored in mathematics, economics and philosophy.

As a professor at the Harvard Business School when World War II started, he helped train Army Air Corps officers in cost-effective statistical control. In 1943, he was commissioned an Army officer and joined a team of young officers who developed a new field of statistical control of supplies.

McNamara and his colleagues sold themselves to the Ford organization as a package and revitalized the company. The group became known as the "whiz kids" and McNamara was named the first Ford president who was not a descendant of Henry Ford.

A month later, the newly elected Kennedy invited McNamara, a registered Republican, to join his Cabinet. Taking the $25,000-a-year job cost McNamara $3 million in Ford stocks and options.

As defense chief, McNamara reshaped America's armed forces for "flexible response" and away from the nuclear "massive retaliation" doctrine espoused by former Secretary of State John Foster Dulles. He asserted civilian control of the Pentagon and applied cost-accounting techniques and computerized systems analysis to defense spending.

Early on, Kennedy regarded South Vietnam as an area threatened by Communist aggression and a proving ground for his new emphasis on counterinsurgency forces. A believer in the domino theory — that countries could fall to communism like a row of dominoes — Kennedy dispatched U.S. "advisers" to bolster the Saigon government. Their numbers surpassed 16,000 by the time of his assassination.

Following Kennedy's death, President Johnson retained McNamara as "the best in the lot" of Kennedy Cabinet members and the man to keep Vietnam from falling as the war escalated.

At a Feb. 29, 1968, retirement ceremony, McNamara was overcome with emotion and could not speak. Johnson put an arm around his shoulder and led him from the room.

McNamara's first wife, Margaret, whom he met in college, died of cancer in 1981; they had two daughters and a son. In 2004, at age 88, he married Italian-born widow Diana Masieri Byfield.

_________________
It takes a big man to make a threat on the internet.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:45 am 
Offline
User avatar
See you in another life, brother
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:01 pm
Posts: 13165
Gender: Male
I need to read his book.

_________________
"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
-- John Steinbeck


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:46 am 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 17563
aprilfifth wrote:
I need to read his book.

5001 Ways to Incinerate Asians?

_________________
Quote:
The content of the video in this situation is irrelevant to the issue.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:59 am 
Offline
User avatar
Reissued
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:38 pm
Posts: 20059
Gender: Male
i watched his movie once

_________________
stop light plays its part, so I would say you've got a part


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:00 am 
Offline
User avatar
In a van down by the river
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:15 am
Posts: 33031
how is tank handling this?

_________________
maybe we can hum along...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:13 am 
Offline
User avatar
Red Mosquito, my libido
 Profile

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:02 am
Posts: 91597
Location: Sector 7-G
scumbag new the war was unwinnable and insisted to keep sending people to their deaths

_________________
It takes a big man to make a threat on the internet.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:17 am 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 17563
Peeps wrote:
how is tank handling this?

By being consistently unfunny.

_________________
Quote:
The content of the video in this situation is irrelevant to the issue.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:18 am 
Offline
User avatar
In a van down by the river
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:15 am
Posts: 33031
bart d. wrote:
Peeps wrote:
how is tank handling this?

By being consistently unfunny.



so hes been preparing a lifetime eh

_________________
maybe we can hum along...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:19 am 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 17563
Peeps wrote:
bart d. wrote:
Peeps wrote:
how is tank handling this?

By being consistently unfunny.



so hes been preparing a lifetime eh

Poor guy saw this coming a mile away.

_________________
Quote:
The content of the video in this situation is irrelevant to the issue.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:23 am 
Offline
User avatar
Administrator
 Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm
Posts: 14534
Location: Mesa,AZ
cutuphalfdead wrote:
scumbag new the war was unwinnable and insisted to keep sending people to their deaths

How do you feel about his contention that he was really just doing what the president told him to, and that he had recommended to JFK that he should end the war?

_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:24 am 
Offline
User avatar
Red Mosquito, my libido
 Profile

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:02 am
Posts: 91597
Location: Sector 7-G
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
scumbag new the war was unwinnable and insisted to keep sending people to their deaths

How do you feel about his contention that he was really just doing what the president told him to, and that he had recommended to JFK that he should end the war?

I actually never read his book, my comment was based on hearsay.

_________________
It takes a big man to make a threat on the internet.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:37 am 
Offline
User avatar
Former PJ Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 17563
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
scumbag new the war was unwinnable and insisted to keep sending people to their deaths

How do you feel about his contention that he was really just doing what the president told him to, and that he had recommended to JFK that he should end the war?

Who's claiming that McNamara told Kennedy to end the war? It wasn't even thought of as a war before Kennedy died, so I don't see how that could be. He was a huge advocate for building up forces in Vietnam, and he played maybe a bigger role than anyone else in convincing Congress to give the President unlimited authority after the Gulf of Tonkin. As for the claim that he was "just following orders," well, from that paraphrase I think you can see where I'm going with it.

_________________
Quote:
The content of the video in this situation is irrelevant to the issue.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:58 am 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:15 pm
Posts: 25452
Location: Under my wing like Sanford & Son
Gender: Male
No matter what you think of him, The Fog of War is a fascinating documentary that everyone should see.

_________________
Now that god no longer exists, the desire for another world still remains.

Always do the right thing.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:03 am 
Offline
User avatar
Reissued
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:38 pm
Posts: 20059
Gender: Male
Orpheus wrote:
No matter what you think of him, The Fog of War is a fascinating documentary that everyone should see.

:nice:

_________________
stop light plays its part, so I would say you've got a part


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:45 am 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Medford, Oregon
Gender: Male
dkfan9 wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
No matter what you think of him, The Fog of War is a fascinating documentary that everyone should see.

:nice:

_________________
Deep below the dunes I roved
Past the rows, past the rows
Beside the acacias freshly in bloom
I sent men to their doom


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:02 am 
Offline
User avatar
Administrator
 Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm
Posts: 14534
Location: Mesa,AZ
bart d. wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
scumbag new the war was unwinnable and insisted to keep sending people to their deaths

How do you feel about his contention that he was really just doing what the president told him to, and that he had recommended to JFK that he should end the war?

Who's claiming that McNamara told Kennedy to end the war? It wasn't even thought of as a war before Kennedy died, so I don't see how that could be. He was a huge advocate for building up forces in Vietnam, and he played maybe a bigger role than anyone else in convincing Congress to give the President unlimited authority after the Gulf of Tonkin. As for the claim that he was "just following orders," well, from that paraphrase I think you can see where I'm going with it.

That's what he claimed in The Fog of War, if I remember correctly (it's been awhile). He said he advised Kennedy against escalating it. He also said that had he known Gulf of Tonkin was fraudulent, he wouldn't have advocated escalation then.

But that's just what he said. In reality, I don't think we'll ever know how much of the blame he deserves, but I tend to think that the President is ultimately responsible for his cabinet, even if the President didn't explicitely give the orders.

_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:11 am 
Offline
Johnny Guitar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:23 am
Posts: 122
The Fog of War :haha:

Do you really think that film is an articulate analysis of the ramifications of American foreign policy and interventionism through the eyes of someone who had actually helped to architect it, or is is the rantings of a senile old man who came to hate America and the freedom it brings to the world?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:50 am 
Offline
Got Some
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:06 am
Posts: 2402
Location: Freedonia
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
That's what he claimed in The Fog of War, if I remember correctly (it's been awhile). He said he advised Kennedy against escalating it. He also said that had he known Gulf of Tonkin was fraudulent, he wouldn't have advocated escalation then.

He was a liar for decades until he realized he could make money and fix his image through faux contrition via his book and the Errol Morris movie. Aside from maybe Kissinger I don't think there's anyone from that era still living who has less credibility on the matter.




Rot in hell, you fucking cunt. I wish HST and Halberstam were alive to piss on your grave.

_________________
"Do you realize that even as we sit here, we are hurtling through space at a tremendous rate of speed?
Think about it. Our world is just a hanging curveball."
-Bill Lee


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Robert McNamara, dead.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Reissued
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:38 pm
Posts: 20059
Gender: Male
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
bart d. wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
scumbag new the war was unwinnable and insisted to keep sending people to their deaths

How do you feel about his contention that he was really just doing what the president told him to, and that he had recommended to JFK that he should end the war?

Who's claiming that McNamara told Kennedy to end the war? It wasn't even thought of as a war before Kennedy died, so I don't see how that could be. He was a huge advocate for building up forces in Vietnam, and he played maybe a bigger role than anyone else in convincing Congress to give the President unlimited authority after the Gulf of Tonkin. As for the claim that he was "just following orders," well, from that paraphrase I think you can see where I'm going with it.

That's what he claimed in The Fog of War, if I remember correctly (it's been awhile). He said he advised Kennedy against escalating it. He also said that had he known Gulf of Tonkin was fraudulent, he wouldn't have advocated escalation then.

But that's just what he said. In reality, I don't think we'll ever know how much of the blame he deserves, but I tend to think that the President is ultimately responsible for his cabinet, even if the President didn't explicitely give the orders.

i don't think he made the claim that he advised kennedy against it. the only thing he advised against i remember was the twisting of facts to some extent, but lbj wanted to push for an expanded war. there were audio tapes of that. though im a bit foggy on the whole thing, but i know there were audio tapes on that.

_________________
stop light plays its part, so I would say you've got a part


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 

Board index » Word on the Street... » News & Debate


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
It is currently Tue Nov 18, 2025 4:53 pm