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 Post subject: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:56 pm 
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I don't know if this has been done. I hope not, since I've been reading N&D since you all started it. It seems like very few people here agree with it, and I'm wondering what you all think would be a good alternative. And if your country does not have a death penalty, what are the they doing?

brainofpea wrote:
The very fact that execution is still happening in a western style government is still a lot more absurd than him not being executed.


This is a quote from BoP in the "I'm too fat to be executed" thread, and is what made me post this. I've never agreed with the death penalty, but only because I thought it wasn't proper punishment. Nobody knows exactly what happens after death. Maybe there is a heaven. Maybe there is a hell (I've never believed in a "hell"). Maybe we go to another world. Who the F*** knows. Not me, that's for sure. Maybe we go nowhere and just decompose. But that's kind of my point. If nothing happens, or if everyone goes to heaven or some place nice, then the death penalty actually offers sort of an "early release" type program, no?

What I'd like to see, is life in prison with no possibilty of parole... ever. Maybe periods of solitary confinement.

What I'd really love, is the above while also leaking the details of the crime to the inmates surrounding you (the quote from BoP came from a thread where the guy raped and murdered two young women), but I realize that is not a civilized answer. Just wanted to throw it out there.

I'm sure this must have been done before, so if that's correct, guide me to where.




edited for grammar

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:22 pm 
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honestly, if it can be proved without a shadow of a doubt that you have committed heinous crimes such as raping or murdering some maliciously (as opposed to killing in self defense) then you deserve to rot in jail and reflect on yourself. i know people complain about paying good tax money to keep those people alive, but simply killing the person doesn't really "teach them a lesson" because, like sandler said, they're dead at that point.
i also see it from the perspective of if a man or woman has killed someone and it's decided that they are supposed to die, who has the right to kill them? do i have the right to throw the switch that sends someone to their death? who has the right to take someone else's life, especially when that's what the original person was charged with.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:20 pm 
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cost is a bad argument because it costs MORE to kill someone than life emprisonment:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108

there is only 1 reason for the death penalty:

not Justice: killing someone because they killed isn't justice.
not deterrence: at the time were there was public executions, most people executed had witnessed an execution themselves.

just Revenge.
now whilst it's understandable for the relatives of the victims to want that, it's not what a so called civilised society should consider justice..

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:24 pm 
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i'd say caning is a good alternative, but i think there's some amendment's saying we can't do that...

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:34 am 
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use for human science experiments, instead of animals

*at least give a prisoner the option over death


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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:07 am 
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This reminds me of the question people asked when they stopped witch hunting: "what now?" The answer: nothing.
Anyway, in my country the biggest punishment is life emprisonment. Really until you die. The sentence 'below' that is 20 years.
There's also 'TBS'. That means you're under government control until they decide it's safe to let you go back into the society. It's used for dangerous people only, basically after a relatively short 'normal' sentence or straightaway. It's only for people who can be treated. Most people 'prefer' jail because it's limited in time (apart from 'life'), while TBS can take many years.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:36 am 
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We could start another penal colony on some island somewhere. Make a reality show out of it like Survivor.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:42 am 
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Can't we make oil out of them or something?

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:54 am 
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JimNasium wrote:
Can't we make oil out of them or something?

:idea:

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:15 pm 
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whatever happened to chain gangs?

Chile puts them out in the middle of the desert where they have to depend on friends or family for food, clothing, for survival.... though I think there is a well. I'd say that's a start, and a healthy deterant. I don't see any reason the state has any obligation to keep criminals healthy or alive.

They don't have to kill them, but they don't have to provide for them either.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:27 pm 
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Stick them in the phantom zone with General Zod....that bastard.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:38 pm 
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Electromatic wrote:
whatever happened to chain gangs?

Chile puts them out in the middle of the desert where they have to depend on friends or family for food, clothing, for survival.... though I think there is a well. I'd say that's a start, and a healthy deterant. I don't see any reason the state has any obligation to keep criminals healthy or alive.

They don't have to kill them, but they don't have to provide for them either.


Then they need to give them a chance to earn their own money. I mean, if you keep someone imprisoned, he or she is your responsability. The punishment is the loss of freedom. There is no need for further punishment, in my opinion. I know, in some countries you get violence including rape in prison, and even torture. But I don't think that's very civilized.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:48 pm 
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why can't they be slaves of the goverment? Make them do manual labor everyday for the rest of their life.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:59 pm 
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pnjguy wrote:
why can't they be slaves of the goverment? Make them do manual labor everyday for the rest of their life.


Like out pickin' cotton or something? :wink:

No I agree with getting some productivity out of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:07 pm 
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homersheineken wrote:
pnjguy wrote:
why can't they be slaves of the goverment? Make them do manual labor everyday for the rest of their life.


Like out pickin' cotton or something? :wink:

No I agree with getting some productivity out of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:42 pm 
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Pegasus wrote:
not deterrence: at the time were there was public executions, most people executed had witnessed an execution themselves.


well, at the time there were public executions -- and, mind you, there still are all over the world -- everyone in town showed up to see it, didn't they?

recent studies have shown a correlation between lower crime rates and the death penalty being in place, but seeing how the crime rate is dependent on so many different issues, i don't buy a causation.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:03 pm 
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I'm not 100% sold on whether or not the death penalty is a good or bad thing. I live in Wyoming, where we do have it, but #1, our population is low enough (and thus the crime rate) that we don't see too many murder cases, and #2, our prosecutors don't typically pursue the death penalty. I did see this article on CNN, though, and I think it's ripe for discussion:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/06/mexican.executed/index.html

Quote:
Mexican government protests Texas execution

MEXICO CITY, Mexico (CNN) -- The United States violated international law by putting a Mexican national to death in Texas, the Mexican government said Wednesday. Protesters for and against Jose Ernesto Medellin's execution gathered before he was put to death Tuesday night in Huntsville, Texas, for raping and murdering two teens in 1993.

His death ended 15 years of legal disputes on a sour note.

"The government of Mexico sent the U. S. Department of State a diplomatic note of protest for this violation of international law, expressing its concern for the precedent that it may create for the rights of Mexican nationals who may be detained in that country," the Mexican government said in a written statement.

"The Ministry of Foreign Relations reiterates that the importance of this case fundamentally stems from the respect to the right to consular access and protection provided by consulates of every state to each of its nationals abroad."

Medellin's execution was also the first of what promises to be a busy month at the state's death chamber in Huntsville. Five other men are scheduled to die in the next four weeks by lethal injection, including Honduran native Heliberto Chi Acheituno on Thursday.

Mexico took the case of Medellin and four other Mexican nationals on death row to the International Court of Justice at The Hague. The court ruled in 2004 that the United States had violated the Vienna Conventions of Consular Relations, which requires a country to notify another country when one of its nationals is accused of a serious crime.

Under the Vienna Conventions, arrested suspects are also eligible for legal assistance from their consulates.

After the ICJ ruling, President Bush reluctantly ordered Texas to comply with that decision and reopen Medellin's case. Texas appealed. In March the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the Vienna Conventions were not binding on the United States, which is a signatory to them, because Congress had not passed a law requiring their enforcement.

The president cannot establish binding rules "that pre-empt contrary state law," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in the majority opinion.

The ICJ ruled again last month that the executions should not be carried out pending a ruling on a request for further interpretation of the 2004 ruling. But Texas, which had set Medellin's execution date immediately after the Supreme Court ruling, carried out the execution Tuesday night after the Supreme Court denied an appeal for a stay.

In June, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Attorney General Michael Mukasey asked Texas Gov. Rick Perry to delay the execution.

"We continue to seek a practical and timely way to carry out our nation's international legal obligation," wrote the Cabinet officers, "a goal that the United States needs the assistance of Texas to achieve."

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon also asked Texas officials this week to delay the capital punishment.

Medellin's lawyers, who argued that Mexican consular officials were not able to meet with the man until after his conviction, condemned the execution.

"With this action, our nation has broken a commitment willingly made by our president and our Senate," the lawyers said in a written statement. "We must now hope that other nations stand stronger in their promises than we do, lest our own citizens be placed at risk elsewhere."

Journalists who witnessed the execution said Medellin apologized to his victims' families before he received the lethal cocktail.

Medellin was 18 when he participated in the June 1993 gang rape and murder of two Harris County girls, Jennifer Ertman, 14, and Elizabeth Pena, 16.


I don't think there's any debate that this man's crimes were terrible. The real question is, as a member of the international community, how do we balance that responsibility with our own sovreignity (sp?)? I can understand not creating a law that subjugates us to The Hague, but did we as a nation do the right thing here? This article also brings into question states' rights, too--but in my opinion, no state should do something that violates the international courts without a damn clear directive from the national level. I never thought I'd agree with Rice and the AG, but I think they acted responsibly in requesting a delay of the execution.

Five people are scheduled to die in Texas in the next four weeks. Is it just me, or does that seem a bit excessive? Of course, this is Texas...


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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:09 pm 
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I thought it was interesting to read that Iran is planning to change some punishments. No more stoning to death and no more amputations. Whipping, hanging, and decapitation will stay. It is still the world's #2 in number of executions, after China.
And about the previous message: I got the impression there are always more executions right before elections.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:34 pm 
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The death penalty is one of the first issues I remember having an opinion on as a kid. I remember a piece in my Weekly Reader that had a capital punishment article. Basically the final quote was from a death penalty advocate justifying her position by saying that "it's wrong to kill people, so this his punishment" (referring to a convicted murderer). I was 10 at the time and I thought that was ridiculous then and I still do.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to the death penalty
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:36 pm 
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I used to argue about this with the hardcore Christians at my high school and they all supported it. What the fuck? It's in the commandments, for Christ's sake.

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