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 Post subject: Taxes and Tax cuts for dummies
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:06 pm 
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I got this e-mail from my sister today, and thought it could be a good discussion starter:
Quote:
This is the simplest explanation of how taxes and tax
cuts in this country work that I have ever read:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The
bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their
bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The ninth $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and
seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one
day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all
such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce
the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we
pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected.
They would still eat for free. But what about the
other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy
up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his
"fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by
six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from
everybody's share,
then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up
being "paid" to eat their meal.

So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be
fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same
amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each
should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing
(100% savings)
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings)
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings)
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings)
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings)
The tenth now paid $49 instead $59 (16% savings)

Each of the six was better off than before and the
first four continued to eat for free. But once outside
the restaurant, the men began to compare their
savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"
declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But
he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth
man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he
got ten times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted
the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I
got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits
the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for
dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But
when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered
something important. They didn't have enough money
between all of them for even half of the bill!


Something about this doesn't seem quite right. Any help?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:13 pm 
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B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.


Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho. The middle class need someone to work for.


Last edited by Electromatic on Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:14 pm 
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Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.


Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.


Plenty of Californians moving here, but how are you defining "wealthy"?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:15 pm 
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Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.


Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.


Yeah, I guess there's always more poor people to exploit in another state.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:16 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.


Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.


Plenty of Californians moving here, but how are you defining "wealthy"?


To be honest I don't really have a good definition for wealthy. I guess in this case I would say those that flee heavy tax burden. They get to keep more of their own money in Idaho.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:18 pm 
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B wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money, so if he walks away from the table, he loses all of his money.


Ask California and the mass exodus of wealthy people moving to Idaho.


Yeah, I guess there's always more poor people to exploit in another state.



I worked plenty of crappy low wage jobs and didn't feel exploited. Why does getting an education and applying it automatically equate to exploiting people?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:19 pm 
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can you make your points using a revised analogy?[/quote]

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:28 pm 
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I'm thinking more like Wal-Marts paying workers shit, not giving health insurance, and firing workers for organizing. If those workers don't think they're being exploited, they're wrong.


But, back to the analogy. Why does each guy get a different percentage back? Why don't they all get their meals dropped by 20% (the amount of the windfall)?

4=free
5=.80
6=2.40
7=5.60
8=9.60
9=14.40
10=47.20

Also, no one that pays no taxes bitches that they're overly burdened.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:34 pm 
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B wrote:
I'm thinking more like Wal-Marts paying workers shit, not giving health insurance, and firing workers for organizing. If those workers don't think they're being exploited, they're wrong.


But, back to the analogy. Why does each guy get a different percentage back? Why don't they all get their meals dropped by 20% (the amount of the windfall)?

4=free
5=.80
6=2.40
7=5.60
8=9.60
9=14.40
10=47.20

Also, no one that pays no taxes bitches that they're overly burdened.


But then everyone would complain more by the logic of the article. the 10th man is getting an even bigger break and everyone else less.

If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich. If this is how it works of course.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:39 pm 
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the verb to trust wrote:
If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich. If this is how it works of course.


Is this really how the tax code works?

:? Of course, getting a smaller percentage of the cut doesn't necessarily mean that the rich guy is paying a greater percentage of his income than the other dudes. I don't think the rich is this country ever come close to paying the percentage of their income that poorer or middle class people pay.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong. I don't care. If you say you know the tax code and I'm wrong... whatever, you're lying. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Taxes and Tax cuts for dummies
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:42 pm 
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the verb to trust wrote:
I got this e-mail from my sister today, and thought it could be a good discussion starter:
Quote:
This is the simplest explanation of how taxes and tax
cuts in this country work that I have ever read:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The
bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their
bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The ninth $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and
seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one
day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all
such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce
the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we
pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected.
They would still eat for free. But what about the
other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy
up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his
"fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by
six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from
everybody's share,
then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up
being "paid" to eat their meal.

So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be
fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same
amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each
should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing
(100% savings)
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings)
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings)
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings)
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings)
The tenth now paid $49 instead $59 (16% savings)

Each of the six was better off than before and the
first four continued to eat for free. But once outside
the restaurant, the men began to compare their
savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"
declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But
he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth
man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he
got ten times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted
the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I
got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits
the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for
dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But
when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered
something important. They didn't have enough money
between all of them for even half of the bill!


Something about this doesn't seem quite right. Any help?


Yeah it is missing some stuff. 1-4 also get a tip at the end of the night, food stamps, free education, a loan to attend college, a better chance at loans from the state and federal government, unemployment checks, free public transporation, welfare and a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.

Sorry, I missed out on a business loan and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.


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 Post subject: Re: Taxes and Tax cuts for dummies
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:45 pm 
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C4Lukin wrote:
Yeah it is missing some stuff. 1-4 also get a tip at the end of the night, food stamps, free education, a loan to attend college, a better chance at loans from the state and federal government, unemployment checks, free public transporation, welfare and a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.

Sorry, I missed out on a business loan and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.


Alright, smarty-pants, you have to put that into restaurant terms. No one gets a college loan at dinner. No smashing reality into the analogy!!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:47 pm 
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B wrote:
I'm thinking more like Wal-Marts paying workers shit, not giving health insurance, and firing workers for organizing. If those workers don't think they're being exploited, they're wrong.



It's ironic that the people mostly likely to shop at walmart are those mostly likely to become jobless or "exploited" (not my view of it) by Walmart.


B wrote:
Because in life, the richest guy depends upon the employment of poorest four in order to continue making money


I think the richest depends on teh employment of the middle 4, not the poorest 4. Unless they sell guns or booze. :twisted:

B wrote:
Also, no one that pays no taxes bitches that they're overly burdened.


That's true. It's the so called advocates for the poor that complain about how the poor are burdened with taxes. But it's usually consumption taxes.


verb to trust wrote:
If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich.


It is, but the poor have something called the "earned income tax credit". They actaully do get paid a refund without putting anything in.


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 Post subject: Re: Taxes and Tax cuts for dummies
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:56 pm 
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B wrote:
C4Lukin wrote:
Yeah it is missing some stuff. 1-4 also get a tip at the end of the night, food stamps, free education, a loan to attend college, a better chance at loans from the state and federal government, unemployment checks, free public transporation, welfare and a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.

Sorry, I missed out on a business loan and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.


Alright, smarty-pants, you have to put that into restaurant terms. No one gets a college loan at dinner. No smashing reality into the analogy!!!


Ok, customers 1-4 get the tip left for the waiter at the end of the night, a free meal on their next visit, a reading of the menu by the famous hot chick of their choice, a voucher for 4 years of free meals if they promise to pay it back, a free taxi home after they get sloshed, three chocolate cakes for every kid they have, a lap dance from Davey Jones all payed for by 5-10.

Sorry, I missed out on a lap dance from Davey Jones and I'm taking it out on customers 1-4.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:06 pm 
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Here's a good description of tax distrobution:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/542.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:11 pm 
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broken_iris wrote:
Here's a good description of tax distrobution:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/542.html


my brain hurts

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:14 pm 
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but I think I got the gist of it. We poor people are running out of room to complain.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:56 pm 
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B wrote:
the verb to trust wrote:
If this is really how tax breaks work in the US then I'd have to say that I might be wrong about complaining about tax breaks for the rich. If this is how it works of course.


Is this really how the tax code works?

:? Of course, getting a smaller percentage of the cut doesn't necessarily mean that the rich guy is paying a greater percentage of his income than the other dudes. I don't think the rich is this country ever come close to paying the percentage of their income that poorer or middle class people pay.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong. I don't care. If you say you know the tax code and I'm wrong... whatever, you're lying. 8)



I know the tax code, and yes, you're wrong.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:01 pm 
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PJDoll wrote:
B wrote:
If anyone thinks I'm wrong. I don't care. If you say you know the tax code and I'm wrong... whatever, you're lying. 8)


I know the tax code, and yes, you're wrong.


Whatever! You're lying.

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Last edited by ¡B! on Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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