Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:31 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
Pegasus wrote:
I'm completely baffled that so many of you think making school non-mandatory can be remotely an option.
sure the schools will be better... but education won't!
you're basically saying anyone that's poor is condemned to stay that way. Social mobility only started happening with compulsory schooling. You'll see crime rates skyrocket. What do you think all those bored kids are going to do all day? really? no money and so nothing to do... that already happens but that'd be 10 times worse.
it IS the job of school to provide an education, and that includes social one if the parents are not able to do it.
yes it's much better if the parents are involved, and that's the single most determining factor in a child success (better educated parents, who also are generally better of financially, are generally more involved..but it's the involvement which is in fact the most important factor..there's been studies on that).
What I hear from here is 'punish the children for having bad/stupid/ignorant parents'.
well, I firmly believe the contrary is true, they need more help to compensate. And it's not even altruistic, in the long run it benefits everyone to have more responsible, economically viable people around (more tax revenue, less crime, less entitlements costs..).
There is a reason I came to that conclusion.
People said poor schools are not good enough. They said one of the biggest reasons for this is that these poor schools are more of a social service than an education center.
I said I want everyone to have the opportunity to have a great education. Poor kids don't have this opportunity because of what their schools are doing.
Now assuming you want to bring poor schools up to the same level as rich schools, there are only a couple things you can do. You are left trying to improve the environment the kids live in, improving the school itself, or both.
If the reason poor kids do poorly is because of their environment, then it should make more sense to try to change that. But think about the implications of trying to change their environment. You are talking about changing an entire society. And when we say changing in this context, we are talking about taxpayer money, we aren't talking about a real change coming from within the society because of it's members.
The amount of welfare you would need to change poor society so that the children living it in are on a level playing field with education is astronomical. There are a million reasons they do poorly in school, a million that have nothing to do with the schools themselves, and anyone that suggests that our job as a government trying to provide public education involves solving the problems of all poor people with tax dollars is completely insane.
All I am suggesting is that it is the job of public education to provide great schools, and it stops there. Since apparently it is the kids which ruin the schools, and their attitudes and problems which make the schools ineffective, the only reasonable way I can think of to improve the schools is to only have people who want to be there. This has never meant it is the kids choice, it means its the parents. The last option is what we do now. We make school mandatory, we continue allowing kids with behavioral problems to stay, and the schools suck because they spend all their time dealing with problems instead of teaching.
If you want things to change you have to make changes. The government can change the schools and fund them better, but only poor society and the people in it can change itself. The idea that public education should receive enough money to do both will never win any votes in this country, and rightfully so.
I'm completely baffled that so many of you think making school non-mandatory can be remotely an option.
I think Buff is the only one who has suggested that.
tyler and you seem to agree with it though!
aprilfifth wrote:
I'd say we're about on the same page with regards to your last post. The problem goes far beyond the classroom. I'd caution that the idea of allowing parents to not send their kids to school would never work, because school is 2 free meals and at least 6-7 hours that the kids are spoken for; so that wouldn't be effective.
You're not saying it's wrong.
I don't see how not specifically repudiating something means that I agree with it. It would never work. In my opinion that's the bottom line whether I agree with it or not. I don't think its a practical suggestion, and I try to make it a habit to not agree with impractical ideas that aren't founded in reality. To please you though, I will come out specifically and say that I do not agree that school should be made non-compulsory. Though I have to say that the reasons you list as to why that would be harmful I find to mostly be fallacious and not entirely based in reality either.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:14 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
I don't think it's a good suggestion either. I simply said it would solve the problem Orpheus suggested. It was a way to demonstrate that the problem isn't the schools, the problem is the society. Combining the two is dishonest because while most of us would agree that everyone deserves good public schooling, not everyone agrees that the government should buy a middle-class lifestyle for all of poor society.
24. Which of the following best describes your feelings on Affirmative Action? A. It was important when introduced; however, it has run its course and is no longer necessary. 28% B. It is a program of institutionalized racism and should never have been passed at any level of government. 34% C. It was, and continues to be, and important program to help minorities with jobs and schooling. 24% D. “Fairness” has no place in government policy. AA is an attempt to legislate fairness, which can never succeed, and in reality should never have been attempted. 14% On a scale of 1-5, this issue is rated 3.02 for importance.
Male (3.07) A. 33.3% B. 31.0% C. 21.4% D. 14.3%
Female (2.71) A. B. 50% C. 37.5% D. 12.5%
American (2.93) A. 31.7% B. 31.7% C. 22.0% D. 14.6%
Non-American (3.13) A. 11.1% B. 44.4% C. 33.1% D. 11.1%
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
25. Which of the following most closely resembles your feelings on the issue of animal rights and eating meat? A. This is of no concern to me. I eat meat, and that isn’t going to change. 60.8% B. I am a vegetarian, or vegan, because of the treatment of animals in slaughterhouses, etc. 7.8% C. I eat meat, but I learn about where that meat comes from before buying it, and therefore purchase meat only from places that do not have deplorable living conditions for the animals before they are killed. 31.4% On a scale of 1-5, this issue is rated 3.04 for importance.
Male (2.98) A. 64.3% B. 7.1% C. 28.6%
Female (3.38) A. 44.4% B. 11.1% C. 44.4%
American A. 64.1% B. 10.3% C. 25.6%
Non-American A. 46.2% B. C. 53.8%
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 25!
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:25 am
Yeah Yeah Yeah
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:37 am Posts: 3610 Location: London, UK Gender: Female
dkfan9 wrote:
I'm not sure what I voted, but I'm an A who wants to be a C.
_________________ 2009 was a great year for PJ gigs looking forward to 2010 and: Columbus, Noblesville, Cleveland, Buffalo, Dublin, Belfast, London, Nijmegen, Berlin, Arras, Werchter, Lisbon, some more US (wherever is the Anniversary show/a birthday show)
Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 25!
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:35 am
Reissued
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:38 pm Posts: 20059 Gender: Male
LittleWing wrote:
You're a Libertarian then you wouldn't be a Republican or a Democrat...
This is kinda like David's floating barometer for the "center".
PD is still right on the center moving over time. And libertarianism can be conceived fairly broadly. There are many plausible ways to vote for one party while broadly fitting better in the libertarian camp than the liberal or conservative camps, depending on the issues one prioritizes in voting.
But that's really beside the point. I find it more interesting how people define themselves than whether their definition accords to some definition your favorite god decrees as the correct one.
_________________ stop light plays its part, so I would say you've got a part
I have always believed President Obama was born in another country. overall: 25.5% dem: 5.3% repub: 55.6% independent: 24.6% lacking an identity: 24.4%
_________________ stop light plays its part, so I would say you've got a part
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