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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:15 pm 
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There are more than a few problems with public education in America. We are falling behind in high-end fields and our young generation is performing worse in math and science compared with other countries. Here is some information:


http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/c0/c0s2.htm

S&E = Science and Engineering
Quote:
The U.S. S&E Labor Force

S&E jobs play a growing role in the U.S. economy, but U.S. S&E degree production lagged growth in S&E occupations.

In 2003, the number of people working in S&E occupations reached 4.6 million, up from 3.3 million a decade earlier. The past decade's growth in S&E jobs continues a longer trend. In each of the past five decades, S&E jobs in the U.S. economy grew more rapidly than the overall civilian labor force. After unusually rapid increases in the 1950s (averaging about 17%), S&E employment through the 1990s rose at an annual average of 3.5%, more than three times as fast as the growth in overall civilian employment (figure O-28 ). In 2003, another 8.6 million holders of S&E degrees worked in jobs not classified as S&E, up from 6.5 million a decade earlier. Many of these other jobs required some S&E knowledge, indicating an increase in these jobs' technical content.

S&E degree production increased but was less than the 4% average annual growth rate of S&E employment from 1980 to 2000. The more rapid expansion of S&E jobs was made possible by the growing numbers of foreigners who earned U.S. degrees and subsequently stayed in the country, those with foreign S&E degrees who migrated to the United States for a limited period or permanently, and low retirement rates of scientists and engineers who, as a group, were younger than the overall labor force.

The influx of scientists and engineers from Asia and elsewhere accelerated in the 1990s.

The 1990s showed strong increases in the number of foreign-born individuals holding U.S. S&E jobs; by 2000, this share had increased from 14% to 22% (figure O-29 ). The largest increases were for doctorate holders, from 24% to 38%, and for certain job specialties. More than half of the engineers holding doctorates and 45% of doctorate holders in the physical sciences, computer sciences, and life sciences were foreign born. One-third of these foreign-born scientists and engineers came from India, China, and the Philippines; among doctorate holders, those from China and India alone comprised one-third of the total.

Foreign students earned one-third of U.S. S&E doctorates and 55% of engineering doctorates, whereas doctorates earned by U.S. white males dropped sharply.

The production of U.S. S&E doctorates since 1990 has been robust, rising from 23,800 to a record 28,800 in 1998 before dropping to 26,900 in 2003. The overall number depended heavily on foreign students. Students holding temporary visas earned between 6,800 and 8,700 doctorates a year (figure O-30 )—in 2003 they earned one-third of the total number of doctorates, more than half of those in engineering, 44% of those in mathematics and computer science, and 35% of those in the physical sciences. The number of U.S. Asian students is inflated by the conversion of large numbers of Chinese students with temporary visas to permanent status under the 1992 Chinese Student Protection Act.


This is just a tiny bit. There is a ton of stuff out there.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:28 pm 
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tyler wrote:
Let's let teachers focus on being teachers and not social workers and babysitters. Then we'd see a significant improvement in education.


That's exactly what I'm talking about, though. Hire other staff to focus on these things. It costs money, but it works. Teachers should only have to focus on teaching, and no one is suggesting they become social workers.

Buffalohed-I understand your concerns, but I think the S&E bit really has nothing to do with the quality of the schools. S&E jobs pay well and are important, but I think they're falling in popularity simply because most American kids want to do something "fun" with their lives, for better or worse. I certainly would never want to be an engineer.

I need McP to back this up since I originally got the info from him, but I believe no one exceeds upper-class and upper-middle-class Americans in educational standards. Where they are beating us is people who aren't from these backgrounds.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:37 pm 
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Just look at the fact that art, music, sports, and even science programs are being cut from schools across the nation. That alone should tell you something.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:40 pm 
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Buffalohed wrote:
Just look at the fact that art, music, sports, and even science programs are being cut from schools across the nation. That alone should tell you something.


I'm the one saying they need a major overhaul and more money, don't blame me.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:42 pm 
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Major overhaul and more money, yes. Emphasis on poor neighborhoods, no.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:45 pm 
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pray tell, what can we do to change this s&e job scenario? make high school chem and bio harder? they're already the most difficult required hs courses. i'd say there's also a lot less leeway in math classes as well when compared to english and history courses. we can't start forcing people into these career paths.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:45 pm 
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When I say that I mean that poor schools need more effort in order to be good schools because they are so shitty. Have you ever heard the phrase "a rising tide lifts all ships"? If we are able to make even schools in poor areas good than the benefit for our workforce would be huge. Imagine if every kid graduated high school, regardless of background. That would be huge.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:46 pm 
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NCLB is horrendous and not the answer. But to think that an intelligent child in the ghetto has the same educational opportunities as a middle class child of the same ability is simply absurd, and would demonstrate to me that a person who thinks that way has never stepped foot in poor and affluent classrooms.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:46 pm 
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Also look at things like civic tests. I don't have the energy to dig anything up, but from what I understand, most Americans don't have even the most basic knowledge concerning US history, economics, or government.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:46 pm 
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aprilfifth wrote:
NCLB is horrendous and not the answer. But to think that an intelligent child in the ghetto has the same educational opportunities as a middle class child of the same ability is simply absurd, and would demonstrate to me that a person who thinks that way has never stepped foot in poor and affluent classrooms.


:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:50 pm 
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aprilfifth wrote:
NCLB is horrendous and not the answer. But to think that an intelligent child in the ghetto has the same educational opportunities as a middle class child of the same ability is simply absurd, and would demonstrate to me that a person who thinks that way has never stepped foot in poor and affluent classrooms.
Could this be because we've turned schools and teachers in poorer areas into social service centres and free babysitting depots? I know we were well intentioned when we did this but some of these schools need far less resources, forcing them to focus on education, going hand in hand with an increase in services being provided outside of schools.


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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:51 pm 
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tyler wrote:
Could this be because we've turned schools and teachers in poorer areas into social service centres and free babysitting depots?


I already told you this isn't the case.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:56 pm 
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You know, if we had a bottomless budget, I would advocate giving poor schools enough money to be exactly the same and just as wonderful as rich schools. In this dimension, however, there is not an infinite supply of resources, and thus I do not believe it is fair to give them all, or even most of them, to poor schools. Just like I don't believe every single taxpayer dollar should go to poor families. I believe every school needs help and I'd like to see them all get that help. At the same time, I don't think it is reasonable that we go out of our way to make sure every poor school in the country is boosted a certain amount while neglecting other schools.

Say it would cost a certain amount of extra money to make sure that every single kid graduated from high school. Say that this amount is exactly the amount of extra money the government was willing to spend on education. Would you people say it is fair and reasonable for every dollar of new education funding go to keeping poor kids in school, while letting every single other school stay in the exact same funding situation that its already in?

Sorry, but that is class warfare. Life is rough, it sucks being poor, but until we have the resources to give everyone what they want, I can't advocate this kind of one-sided approach to education.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:58 pm 
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dkfan9 wrote:
pray tell, what can we do to change this s&e job scenario? make high school chem and bio harder? they're already the most difficult required hs courses. i'd say there's also a lot less leeway in math classes as well when compared to english and history courses. we can't start forcing people into these career paths.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
tyler wrote:
Could this be because we've turned schools and teachers in poorer areas into social service centres and free babysitting depots?


I already told you this isn't the case.
From my experience with a kid that has attened schools in both an under privledged area and a much more affluent area I can tell you that the teachers and school staff in the under priviledged areas are social workers and babysitters. They may also focus a little on teaching but to a large extent they spend their and their student's time trying to provide in a aclassroom what they feel the students are missing at home. This still happens in the more affluent schools to a much lesser extent and is more individual student driven than class driven.

It's like the teachers feel very guilty about society in the under priviledged areas and also expect far less from their students.


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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:04 pm 
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I'm kind of with Tyler on this. This is not just about education. When you are talking about all this money to keep poor kids in school, you aren't just talking about education. You are talking about the situation of poor people in general. It goes far beyond education and becomes a matter of welfare. I think everyone in this country should have food and shelter, but I also think everyone who is able should work. When kids aren't going to school, or dropping out to have babies, or sell drugs, or whatever the fuck else, that isn't the problem of the education system. You can't make up an entire massive welfare system and throw it on the back of education, saying that this is what the poor needs to be able to get a good education, therefore we must do it.

It's one thing to say that everyone should be able to afford a house. It's another thing to say that whoever cannot afford a house should be automatically provided a well-paying job, a car, and a low-interest loan so that they can afford a house. That's just not how things work.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Buffalohed wrote:
You know, if we had a bottomless budget, I would advocate giving poor schools enough money to be exactly the same and just as wonderful as rich schools. In this dimension, however, there is not an infinite supply of resources, and thus I do not believe it is fair to give them all, or even most of them, to poor schools. Just like I don't believe every single taxpayer dollar should go to poor families. I believe every school needs help and I'd like to see them all get that help. At the same time, I don't think it is reasonable that we go out of our way to make sure every poor school in the country is boosted a certain amount while neglecting other schools.

Say it would cost a certain amount of extra money to make sure that every single kid graduated from high school. Say that this amount is exactly the amount of extra money the government was willing to spend on education. Would you people say it is fair and reasonable for every dollar of new education funding go to keeping poor kids in school, while letting every single other school stay in the exact same funding situation that its already in?

Sorry, but that is class warfare. Life is rough, it sucks being poor, but until we have the resources to give everyone what they want, I can't advocate this kind of one-sided approach to education.


Why shouldn't every child in a public school have the same opportunities and the same high level of education?

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:06 pm 
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dkfan9 wrote:
dkfan9 wrote:
pray tell, what can we do to change this s&e job scenario? make high school chem and bio harder? they're already the most difficult required hs courses. i'd say there's also a lot less leeway in math classes as well when compared to english and history courses. we can't start forcing people into these career paths.

Well, I'm not an expert, but I would start with putting education back in the hands of educators. Give them the power to decide what changes need to be made, and give them the funding to do it. Politicians have no business deciding how to run schools, school districts, curriculums, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:08 pm 
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You guys are acting as though education isn't an investment though, when that's exactly what it is. For a little bit more money today, we can have a much better workforce tomorrow. It's totally worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: RM Litmus Test Survey- Updated Results on Page 22!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:09 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Buffalohed wrote:
You know, if we had a bottomless budget, I would advocate giving poor schools enough money to be exactly the same and just as wonderful as rich schools. In this dimension, however, there is not an infinite supply of resources, and thus I do not believe it is fair to give them all, or even most of them, to poor schools. Just like I don't believe every single taxpayer dollar should go to poor families. I believe every school needs help and I'd like to see them all get that help. At the same time, I don't think it is reasonable that we go out of our way to make sure every poor school in the country is boosted a certain amount while neglecting other schools.

Say it would cost a certain amount of extra money to make sure that every single kid graduated from high school. Say that this amount is exactly the amount of extra money the government was willing to spend on education. Would you people say it is fair and reasonable for every dollar of new education funding go to keeping poor kids in school, while letting every single other school stay in the exact same funding situation that its already in?

Sorry, but that is class warfare. Life is rough, it sucks being poor, but until we have the resources to give everyone what they want, I can't advocate this kind of one-sided approach to education.


Why shouldn't every child in a public school have the same opportunities and the same high level of education?

The same opportunities does not amount to the same level. I agree that every child should have the same opportunity of education in the school. That doesn't mean I think it is necessarily going to be as easy for someone who is in a poor neighborhood. If they have the same opportunities but choose not to take advantage of them, which I suspect is very often the case, I have little sympathy and even less desire to throw money at them. Make the schools equal, but as long as people choose not to utilize them, the onus should be on them.

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