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 Post subject: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:49 am 
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is it teaching -- the educators? is it learning -- the kids, or parents? environment come into play? governmental funding? give me your scoop on the topic in 10 sentences or less.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:54 am 
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you know what it is? it's the fact that teaching is where dreams go to die.

let me explain. do you know how many teachers i know that quit their real profession to become teacheres? Bankers, actors, dancers, lawyers. And they all give up and decide, "I'm not making it in this job i'd like to succeed in. i'm going to try teaching." So now we have a bunch of quiters teaching our kids. No wonder the kids are so damn stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:13 am 
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Everything.

Poor teachers. Probably because its relatively low paying, so the majority of people who would make good teachers opt for more lucrative careers. It is WAY too easy to become a teacher. I took a few education classes in college, and each of those classes were by FAR the easiest classes I took. And the students in the class were dumbfoundingly stupid. Like the girl next to me who had failed the survey US History course THREE TIMES!! How is that possible?!??! And she was sadly not really the exception to the rule. Professor: "During WWII...and uh, who was the President during WWII?" *Crickets chirping*

So poor teachers for one. Assessment tests that have teachers teaching students to beat a test rather than teaching what should be taught. The fact that our Dept of Education (and many state education depts) are run by politicians and their friends as opposed to education experts. Society in general- by which I mean an attitude which doesn't place proper importance on education.

I could obviously go on and on, but you wanted short answers and I've already exceeded that.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:17 am 
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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:37 am 
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:lol:



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If you hunt for the ECRP study, or a similar one, you'll find that when we're talking parent expectations we're talking home support and the expectation that the child will succeed according to the school's determiners. In other words, a parent who has learned what the standards are (insert self-yanking smiley here) and is encouraging their kid to, I dunno, improve their descriptive writing skills is not necessarily helping their kid as much as a parent who doesn't understand them but simply refuses to accept things like low grades and misbehavior, and who expects studying to continue outside of school. If I remember right, parental support in times where discipline was required was the most influential....it's also a place where the US gets slaughtered by countries who rank above us. We are the record holders for lawsuits designed to contest or repeal disciplinary actions, which is not a very noble title.

I struggle more with gullibility, personally. Things like telling mom that Jamie is missing four assignments, and when they haven't shown up 2 weeks later I call again and she goes "Oh, well, he told me he turned those in." "Was he able to show you my signature in his planner, like we talked about?" "No. He said you told him you were too busy to sign it."

A few things I was going to include there, but forgot:

1. School age children spend 70% of their waking hours (including weekends and holidays) outside of school.

2. I forgot to mention this with the above details, but family participation in education was twice as predictive of student academic success as family socioeconomic status.

3. Struggling students who are put in highly effective schools but experience low parental involvement tend to continue struggling, while struggling students put in low achieving schools but provided with high family support and expectations tend to improve significantly.


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The amount of information covered in an education today is 27% greater than it was just 4 years ago. And that doesn't count the amount of information now available to curious minds. I showed a student Wikimapia today and ended up with no less than 5 others coming up to get the addy. And these are 12 year olds.

Our students' main Science project for the year is to invent something that makes their life easier using a series of simple and complex machines. They have to design, propose, request materials, build, and present it (showing that it does, in fact work). When I was in 7th grade, I looked in a microscope. And I drew what I saw.


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However, it is worth noting that American upper-middle class students outperform the entire world minus Singapore (which is the world leader), where the very poorest students underperform almost everyone. Furthermore, these performance differences remain when programs are instituted that bus poor students to the wealthy-area schools, or allow them access to private institutions...and students from wealthy families perform just as incredibly no matter what school you send them to. In other words, the defining factor here isn't the schools, it's social class...and we need to figure out why before we do anything at all with our schools.


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If you choose private school, be careful which one. A study called "Comparing Private Schools and Public Schools Using Hierarchical Linear Modeling," which is fairly indicative of other studies, found that when you discount the effects of special ed scores and other notable factors, private schools score equally with public schools in reading. Furthermore, the average private school actually scored below the average public school on math tests. As I said, this was indicative of other studies, but it's notable because it is by far the largest attempted on the subject.


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I'm overpaid. I've got my classroom set up in a way that makes it very much driven by the students. They identify their weaknesses, interests, and strengths as writers and then using that to select projects, assist each other's work, coach each other through challenges, and even present findings to the class. They operate a scientific study laboratory and host a school-wide Wiki. I spend the first month preparing and training, and after that I'm bored to tears. Best thing is, I almost never have any trouble with missing work and I never have behavior problems. And these are poverty-level middle schoolers.


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I'm definately one of those on the side that says teachers don't need to be paid more


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When people talk about education reform they think of more money, or tougher standards, or more computers, when what they should be talking about is the fact that education as a system has remained fairly unchanged over the last 130 years in spite of the growing amount of cognitive research, long-term behavioral studies, and child psychology documentation that proves it faulty. And that remains truer for private schools than public ones, where at least you have things like magnet schools and extended opportunity buildings.


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It's interesting to me how, in America, when we look at the success other countries have with education, one of the first questions we have is whether it's a federal government thing, local government thing, or private education issue. I'm far more interested in what these places have in common with us, and what major differences I can find. It seems to offer far more interesting results.

About Finland's education system

The Finnish education system is an egalitarian Nordic system. Attendance is compulsory from ages 7 to 16, and free meals are served to pupils at primary and secondary levels. The first nine years of education (primary and secondary school) are compulsory, and the pupils go to their local school. In the OECD's international assessment of student performance, PISA, Finland has consistently been among the highest scorers worldwide; in 2003 Finnish 15-year-olds came first in reading literacy, mathematics, and science, while placing second in problem solving, worldwide. In tertiary education, the World Economic Forum ranks Finland #1 in the world in the enrollment and quality and #2 in math and science education.

There are private schools, and they are given a state grant comparable to the state grant given to the municipal school of same size. However, even in private schools, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited. Because of this, existing private comprehensive schools are mostly faith-based or Waldorf schools.

While nearly 100% of Finland's population graduates from the primary schooling that ends at 16, only about 50% graduate from the trade-focused secondary schools.

Disruptive behavior and violence are uncommon in Finnish schools, and parental involvement in the system ranks above other Western countries in every category. If you're ever there, swing by a public Junior High. A majority of students ride their bikes to school, and fewer than 7% say they lock their bikes up during the day.




About Japan's

More than 99% of children are enrolled in elementary school. All children enter first grade at age six, and starting school is considered a very important event in a child's life.

Virtually all elementary education takes place in public schools; less than 1% of the schools are private. Private schools tended to be costly, although the rate of cost increases in tuition for these schools had slowed in the 1980s.

Junio High covers grades seven, eight, and nine, children between the ages of roughly 12 and 15, with increased focus on academic studies. Although it is still possible to leave the formal education system after completing kindergarten and find employment, fewer than 16% did so by the late 1990s.

Like elementary schools, most lower-secondary schools are public. More than 80% of teachers graduated from a four-year college. Classes are large, with thirty-eight students per class on average, and each class is assigned a homeroom teacher who doubles as counselor. Unlike elementary students, lower-secondary school students have different teachers for different subjects. The teacher, however, rather than the students, moves to a new room for each fifty-minute period.

Even though upper secondary school is not compulsory in Japan, 63% of all lower secondary school graduates entered upper secondary schools as of 2000. Private upper-secondary schools account for about 50% of all upper-secondary schools, and neither public nor private schools are free.

Discipline is incredibly strict in Japanese schools, with a heavy emphasis on conformity. As a result, Japan estimates less than .5% of its classroom time is devoted to addressing misbehaviors (compared to nearly 10% in the US). A secondary result is a large exodus during the middle grades of students who struggle with this controlled environment.


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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:14 pm 
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Except for McP, why are all of you so cynical about American education? Didn't any of you receive an adequate education? At any level?


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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm 
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I've noticed a few things--while my k-12 experience is limited to 2 years in a private school I've taught hundreds of freshmen and taught a lot of teachers at professional development workshops (and I know a lot of teachers who talk about their experiences)

Parental accountabiltiy/involvement is important and there needs to be more of it to enforce the habits and discipline that school tries to create

There needs to be an acceptance about the possibiltiy of failure. Access to education is a right, and the commitment to helping a child get educated MUST be there, but there is no guarantee every child will get it on the first try.

Teachers do not necessarily need to be paid more. They're paid fairly. The problem is not so much that we don't pay teachers enough as it is we overpay so many other professions. The caveat here is that class size needs to be reasonable. A teacher who has to teach 30 students does deserve more money than one teaching 20.

I do think class sizes need to be smaller so that students can get the feedback and attention that they need

Teachers need to be smarter. Obviously there are many brilliant teachers but my impression is that education degrees focus too much on educational theory and not enough on writing and critical thinking, let alone content knowledge. The people teaching our children need to know more.

this may be the one place where teachers need to be paid more. If you want to draw the best and brightest into this profession (which is where they should be) you need to pay more. Otherwise you'll have the ones who are dedicated to it as an ideal or who are invovled out of love for the profession, but there simply aren't enough McP's out there to staff all our schools.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:57 pm 
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I place most of the blame on the parents or lack of parents. I tend to think there are more good, hard working teachers who care than ones just collecting a paycheck.
I have an aunt and uncle who teach in Holyoke, MA. One of, if not the poorest cities in Mass. They are both bright dedicated teachers who choose that city because it is where they grew up and it means a lot to them to reach out to struggling students. So even if kids in this school score lower on tests and have a higher drop out rate, I cannot put the blame on the teachers.
The value of education is tied to socio-economic status. If a child's environment is filled with people who have no formal education and do not emphasis the importance of it, the kid is gonna drop out.
McP, I am interested in learning more about how you set up your classroom. Is it based on a theory (montessori?) or book I can read more about.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:01 pm 
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McP: :cop:
Quote:
in 10 sentences or less.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm 
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dscans wrote:
McP, I am interested in learning more about how you set up your classroom. Is it based on a theory (montessori?) or book I can read more about.


I'm not sure that my individual classroom serves as much of a relevant point or example for this thread, but I'll see what I can dig up to explain it...and then spoiler it to keep it out of everyone else's hair.

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in 10 sentences or less.


:censored:

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:45 pm 
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. Classes are large, with thirty-eight students per class on average, and each class is assigned a homeroom teacher who doubles as counselor. Unlike elementary students, lower-secondary school students have different teachers for different subjects. The teacher, however, rather than the students, moves to a new room for each fifty-minute period.

My brazilian private school did just like that! Including each class being 50 minutes long. A shame we werent 1/4 applied as the japs. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:48 pm 
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1. Disparity in spending (largely through funding inequities)
2. Under-funded pension plans that syphen money from where it should go: to the schools
3. Teacher unions in a lot of major cities
4. Parents' apathy
5. The resistance to change or move away from the status quo


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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:06 pm 
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Both my mother and aunt have been in the school system here in CT for many years, and from everything I hear the biggest problem is the lack of parental involvement. I get the feeling that parents these days just send their kids to school and expect the teachers to do all the work. When I was in grade school, my parents made sure I went to school, did my homework, and got good grades. They knew exactly when the report card was coming and they'd sit with me and go over it. Aside from my very rebellious senior year of high school, I always got good marks. I have some friends that are very bright, but never did nearly as well because their parents did not involve themselves too much in their child's education. I've also known some kids that were not all that gifted but who had parents that did make the effort and some of them went on to get grades and successful careers.

I'm sure there's plenty that can be changed to help the school system (get rid of this ridiculous No Child Left Behind Act, for one), but change needs to start with the parents. They are their child's most important teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:23 pm 
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a lot of kids simply do not care about learning. there are other factors such as teachers, parents, etc, but if someone does not want to learn and pay attention in class, how do you reach them?

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:55 pm 
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First and foremost parents are to blame. Many don't give the time, patience, perserverance and caring rquired to help their kids succeed and excel.

Second, but much lower down is teachers. Some of this may be the system in place (administrative red tape) but I've found some don't even support my efforts. I ask my son to ask his teachers every two weeks how they think his effort level is. He knows some just don't give a damn. But with teachers who do care he's usually at least B student.


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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:02 pm 
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My mom is a teacher and I have several teachers in my family. Teachers feel like their hands are tied behind their backs. They are unable to use any type of discipline in their classes anymore. The kids are babied and allowed to get away with almost anything. A lot of these kids have poor family lives and it transfers over to the classroom. Standardized testing has caused 'teaching to the test'. My mom is an art teacher and is barely allowed to teach art in the classroom anymore. I remember when I was in high school in Massachusetts when the state MCAS math and English tests were introduced, science and history were no longer emphasized in the curriculum.

Sure there are plenty of inept teachers; we've all had them. But I don't think they are the main problem.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:11 pm 
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PeopleMyAge wrote:
a lot of kids simply do not care about learning. there are other factors such as teachers, parents, etc, but if someone does not want to learn and pay attention in class, how do you reach them?
Wihout parent support or the child having an exceptional teacher there's not much hope until the kid matures. Why let these kids drag down a whole class? This is the main reason I'd like a school voucher system. Let me ensure my kid is in a school where the parents care, usually supported by mandatory volunteer time at the school by the parents.


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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:27 pm 
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tyler wrote:
PeopleMyAge wrote:
a lot of kids simply do not care about learning. there are other factors such as teachers, parents, etc, but if someone does not want to learn and pay attention in class, how do you reach them?
Wihout parent support or the child having an exceptional teacher there's not much hope until the kid matures. Why let these kids drag down a whole class? This is the main reason I'd like a school voucher system. Let me ensure my kid is in a school where the parents care, usually supported by mandatory volunteer time at the school by the parents.

not that i don't agree that a lot of parents don't seem to care about their kids and something needs to be done about that, but i really don't see many parents that work full time jobs that are going to be willing to volunteer their time at school functions. most hold the idea that it's the teacher's job to educate their children, right or wrong, and are going to blame the school when something goes wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:29 pm 
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PeopleMyAge wrote:
tyler wrote:
PeopleMyAge wrote:
a lot of kids simply do not care about learning. there are other factors such as teachers, parents, etc, but if someone does not want to learn and pay attention in class, how do you reach them?
Wihout parent support or the child having an exceptional teacher there's not much hope until the kid matures. Why let these kids drag down a whole class? This is the main reason I'd like a school voucher system. Let me ensure my kid is in a school where the parents care, usually supported by mandatory volunteer time at the school by the parents.

not that i don't agree that a lot of parents don't seem to care about their kids and something needs to be done about that, but i really don't see many parents that work full time jobs that are going to be willing to volunteer their time at school functions. most hold the idea that it's the teacher's job to educate their children, right or wrong, and are going to blame the school when something goes wrong.

I've seen plenty of parents who were more than willing to work full time and devote some of their free time to school functions. Had a pair of them myself.

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 Post subject: Re: the problem with education in america
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:32 pm 
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I agree that a large weight should be placed on the parents and a lot fail at this.

However, when it comes to higher education (and secondary education to an extent), I feel the idea of general education courses fails. I was by no means a whiz in the classroom, but it was painful to be in the discussion classes where the teacher asks about the reading and all she gets is crickets. I feel as students who are taking 15-18 credits are more likely to memorize a list of study points and skip major readings. As many of us know, when you cram in a bunch of memorizations, you forget them within weeks. No help to anybody.

So the system needs help. Grade inflation is a big problem, plus students are accustomed to doing the bare minimum in the classes that are not required. Basically "bare minimum" was my mindset from 1st grade all the way up to my first year of college...luckily I grew up, but I see a lot of kids live by this rule...and they still get through.


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